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i believe i did allude to the training of bin LAden back in post #115 but to no avail

nice to see that intelligent debate is alive and well in the United States. By the way you have proven once again that you arent that good with actual facts. Its 70 million sheep - a well publicised fact.. perhaps you got this fact from your cereal box book'o'facts along with all your other farcical ones.

and before you all jump down my throat- yes I am aware that there is provocation for this but thought I would use the same kinda logic as DB seems to

Who is moving to attack a country without much of a defence as Hitler did when invading Poland? mmm let me think? Perhaps we should think before we speak

agree with you completely on this one. nice to see that we can get a little humour into this highly addictive rant-fest

kei te pai.

why do you feel you know so much about New Zealand law andl policies. As a Maori (no doubt I must be stupid and dont deserve a job, considering your comment that employers should be able to disriminate against people because of race, colour etc), who is on an individual contract in New Zealand perhaps you should check out some facts before you start with your anti-NZ rhetoric. Also who the h*ll are you to say things about the Treaty of Waitangi. Do you even know anything about it or are u mentioning it merely to sound clever?

mmm. some little clever clogs has forgotten the no personal attacks rule. I was refering to the movements of troops towards Afghanistan when there was no proof that Afghanistan or bin Laden have involvement . Yes info does point to bin Ladens network but the FBI and CIA have yet to show the world proof. The FBI have just said after all that they may have acted to quickly in naming the suspected hijackers as some of them are still alive and nowhere near the states. They have even gone so far as to say that some may have been using false documents. I wonder how much the US taxpayers forked out for that piece of intelligence work? Listening to George W. Bush now in his address to Congress I find it laughable that he says that the Taliban and other Middle Eastern states fund and give support to terrorists and terrorism. Who trained Osama bin Laden and his "Afghan" supporters (most of whom are from Saudi Arabia and Egypt) in the first place to act against the Soviets in the 70's and 80's. The American government. The propaganda that the US spouts about attacks on freedom and democracy is nothing but pure fiction- it was an attack against the USA itself to show that interference in others wars and support of persecution in the middle East cannot occur without repurcussion. Once again I stress my heart is with the people who are suffering and have suffered because of the terrible actions of these fundamentalists in the United States but open your eyes, USA has not been entirely blameless in its actions in the middle east in the past.

i dont think i said the game plan did hinge on which way NZ goes? By the way my typical "blame the victim" seems to be matched by you typical "bury my head in the sand" talk. I can believe so many people take what they are told by the media as the gospel truth. Dont you question? Dont you think for yourself? I have no bad feeling towards Americans as a people only some of the policies carried out by the current and past administrations. I have friends and family living in Bakersfield, Salt Lake City and other cities across the us and a cousin who was 2 blocks from the WTC when it came down. I am not condoning the behaviour of the people who perpetrated this atrocity. I am just saying that the policy of the US govt. to act all gung-ho before taking a minute to find out for sure who did this, is not one that is, to me, a righteous one.

It is a terrible thing that has happened in New York and in Washington and the number of people dead. I feel truly sorry for the survivors and the family of the dead. What I dont agree with is the fact that you and the other misinformed condemn our nation and our Primeminister because we are not committing frontline troops. You dont seem to be well enough informed on New Zealand or international politics to comment! Besides no-one can say that George Bush was exactly the choice of the US people. It is the ignorance and blinkered view of many in the United States and the rest of the world,that has caused the WTC disaster and the problems in the middle east. Too many "conservative" Americans are gun-toting cowboys with no kind of knowledge of what they or the USA are doing in this world. Label me a commie or a lefty- i dont give a rats a*s. The US are too ready to jump in to any conflict and/or cause conflict,while playing the happy peacemaker.Take the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, no doubt there are many of you out there saying that the Muslims hate the Israeli's because thay represent freedom and all that is good and right (for good read American) in this world. Well I dont think that backing the Israelis now can appease the gulit of ignoring what happened to the Jewish people in WWII- (the one time that you as a nation didnt jump in) No-one wanted to take the disinfranchised Jews of Europe after the war but the US will help them persecute the Palestinians now. And while you're at it why not attack Afganistan? After all Osama bin Laden (most probably) is there- thats if the CIA and special forces can locate him -now the question is where is the proof? And yet another -can the US actually hit him if they do go in? After all the airforce dropped bombs on their own observers (incl. a New Zealander), the CIA admit missing the target a few months ago when firing on bin Laden's courtage of cars.OOPS!