General Custer was betrayed at Little Bighorn (and the story of the officer who tried to stop it)

Custer's Last Stand History Portal ^ | 02/15/07 | custerwest

[drzz]

The same story in a three-minutes video:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Xsdwzleh5a0

[Cvengr]

One problem with a leader who is a arrogant loser is that those who are his junior are placed in an awkward situation where when they remain obedient and loyal, they also become losers and associated with his arrogance. Meanwhile, should they disobey and not follow the arrogant loser, they become liable to indictments of mutiny and traitorous behavior.

IMHO, Custer was an arrogant fool who paid the price of his incompetence with the decimation of his military force. He committed his forces too early without sufficient battlefield intelligence, he failed to have sufficient logistics on hand when he committed his forces, and he split his forces in the heat of battle, while then sending conflicting orders which may not have been received in precedence of when they were intended, all in the heated actions of arrogant desperation.

Too many people associate desperate behavior with weakness, while ignoring how arrogance scars the thinking processes of those most arrogant. The desperation of the most arrogant is frequently characterized by resolute behavior forcefully thrusting itself upon the volition of one’s juniors, rather than respecting the volition of one’s juniors and providing responsible guidance always respecting legitimate authority.

[ARE SOLE]

Thanks, this was very interesting. I am going to find out more about Weir. He sounds like an outstanding cavalry officer. It’s a nice break from hating MCCnutts. Now, back to hating McCnutts.

Regards

[drzz]

sorry, but you are very ill-informed about the Little Bighorn.

You seem to suffer from a very usual hate against Custer based on myths and tradition - the arrogant fool at LBH.

Custer attacked a strong force with a front-flank attack which wasn’t only logical, but which worked until his support betrayed him. There was nothing foolish in attacking the Indians. US General-in-chief Nelson A Miles supported Custer’s decisions, as well as many historians (see custerwest.org)

You should review the true story of the battle of the Little Bighorn before writing such inflammatory statements. Hollywood cannot be used as historical reference.

[drzz]

thanks for the kind words, man. Weir was the overlooked character of the Little Bighorn

[LS]

The "true history" might include Richard Fox's archeological insight that suggests that Custer, right up until the last minute, thought the Indians were "escaping." His troops on Keough Hill were badly infiltrated by the time he figured out he was the one who needed to be escaping. Had Benteen and Reno ran to his aid, another 180 men would have died.

Many Custerologists---who do not "hate Custer"---rightly conclude in my opinion that had Custer even taken the additional cavalry regiment he was offered AND had Benteen AND had the pack train, he still would have been wiped out.

It's one thing to "attack a strong force" that hasn't seen your tactics before; it's quite another to send 260 vs. about 4,000 on broken ground. Fox undisputably shows that no one in either Keough's or Custer's command EVER even formed a skirmish line.

[drzz]

Fox never “undisputably” showed anything. His theory of “lack of resistance” doesn’t stand up to the basics of the battle.
Fox claimed to have found “not enough cartridges on the battlefield” although he knew that thousands of artefacts had been collected since 1876 by relic hunters. I personally know people who picked up hundreds of bullets and cartridges on the hill. So analyzing a “contaminated” field and drawing conclusions on a lack of material is useless - and destroys Fox’s credibility. Moreover, the Indian testimonies clearly don’t back Fox’s theory at all.

Indian forces never numbered 4’000, but 1’000 to 1’500. The “4’000” myth was created by Benteen and Reno to cover their own asses and their betrayal.

Custer attacked 1’000 warriors with 650 soldiers. He lost the battle because of these 650, 400 never supported him because their commanders, Benteen and Reno, refused to do their duty and commited high treason against their superior and their flag.

[drzz]

INDIAN ACCOUNTS ON THE LAST STAND

Crow King: “Riderless mounts scattered across the hills and ran to the river but the soldiers kept in order and fought like brave warriors.”

Moving Robe: “It was a hotly contested battle.”

Eagle Elk: “The shootings [by the soldiers] Eagle Elk had witnessed within the last minutes had been enough to convince him of the good sense in staying away from the front lines.”

Red Horse : “Even tough virtually surrounded, the soldiers put up a stiff resistance, for it was in this charge [chief Lame White Man’s charge] that the Lakotas lost more of their men. Red Horse thought that 136 Indians were killed and 160 were wounded in that phase of the battle.”

Hollow Horn Bear: “In fact, Hollow Horn Bear believed that the troops were in good order at the start of the fight, and kept their organization even while moving from point to point.”

Sitting Bull: “There was so much doubt about the outcome [of the battle] that I told the squaws to break the camp and be ready to leave.”

Red Hawk: “Here the soldiers made a desperate fight.”

Iron Hawk:”The Indians pressed and crowded right in around Custer Hill. But the soldiers weren’t ready to die. We stood there a long time.”

Thunder Hawk’s wife: “It was quite a fight” (on Custer Hill)

Wooden Leg could see “that all the soldiers were killed except for a band that remained hidden behind their dead horses.”

Flying By: “(the stand) was made in the place where Custer would be killed, down at the end of the long ridge.”

Flying Hawk: “Custer made a stand on his hill.”

Gall: Gall neared the end of the ridge where the last soldiers were making a stand. “They were fighting good” he said.

Lights: he could see the soldiers who had fled the Keogh fight joining those making the stand on the hill.

Two Eagles: The most stubborn stand the soldiers made was on Custer Hill. From his position a short way north and west of that point, Two Eagles noticed the hilltop was very level and the soldiers took the spot to continue their defense. (…) “They were killed on top of the ridge” Two Eagles declared.

Red Hawk: The bluecoats were “falling back steadily to Custer Hill where another stand was made”, said Red Hawk. “Here the soldiers made a desperate fight.”

Two Moon: (…) Two Moon turned back to watch the fight. (…) The “grey bunch” was still fighting.

Moving north along the ridge to where he could see better, Standing Bear noticed dismounted soldiers holding their horses by the bridles. “They were ready for us”, he said, and they began to shoot, “the bullets were just raining”. (…) Bear Horn rode up too close (to the last stand) and was himself shot down.

On Last Stand Hill, Iron Hawk saw about twenty men on horseback and about thirty men on foot. “The Indians pressed and crowded right in and around them on Custer Hill” But the soldiers weren’t ready to die. Said Iron Hawk,“We stood there a long time.”

Big Beaver: Big Beaver crawled back down the coulee to put a bit more distance between himself and the deadly soldiers bullets. (…) The Indians were rushing toward the hill where the soldiers were making their desperate fight.

[LS]

As Fox shows, Indian accounts could (and did) comport PERFECTLY with his interpretation. Moreover, some Indians, depending on their personality, what they thought the white interviewers wanted to hear, and tribal/cultural background, said one thing, others said another. It also depends (as Hollow Horn Bear's comment shows) on WHICH troops they were referring to, at what point in the battle their comments were made.

Fox's account places these, and others, within the timeline.

[LS]

Custer didn't have a clue HOW many Indians he attacked. Virtually all of his scouts told him it was a gigantic village, and most of the accounts later validate the 4,000-5,000 numbers. Since he never formed a battle line, however, it was irrelevant.

But you are welcome to perpetuate the myth.

[drzz]

no, Fox’s thesis is not only wrong, but is a careful fraud. Michno’s “Lakota Noon” showed that the Indians never supported an overall disintegration, as show the accounts above. Moreover, if put in a timeline (something not done by Fox, who gathers all the accounts and use the “run away” ones while throwing away all the others), Indian accounts tell this story:

1) very organized resistance

2) tactical disintegration near the end with the Last Stand

[drzz]

this is false.

Custer told his officers that they had to attack 1’000-1’500 warriors, and there were 1’000-1’500 warriors. It’s confirmed by Lieutenants Godfrey and Edgerly.

You are making wrong statements, without evidence, you should try to stick on facts rather than on your opinion.

http://www.custerwest.org

[Michael.SF.]

Had Benteen and Reno ran to his aid, another 180 men would have died.

Very true and exactly what I was going to say. I would also add this, Custer had faced the Indians numerous times before and had always been strongly out numbered. However, based on his experience, the Indians had rarely fought back. Instead their tactics were to hit and run, then return later and repeat this. Rarely did they launch a continuous attack as they did at LBH.

LBH represented a change in Indian attack planning, which took Custer by surprise. It was this change that led to his defeat.

One very eerie sight is to stand at the top of the hill and look down towards where the attacks started and to see the serpentine like long line of crosses leading to the crest of the hill. Indeed by the time Custer's last men reached the hill, the outcome of the battle had long been decided.

[LS]

You nailed it. Custer SAID it. More nonsense. Stop trying to defend this poor, arrogant excuse for an officer.

[An Old Marine]

Easy boys,

There is an element of truth in what you all say however... numbers stated really do not matter. Us Injuns were armed with repeaters, you white eyes were armed with single shot Springfield's. And anyone who seriously knows tactical ops will tell you that is the name of the game.

Further the Sioux/Cheyenne warriors uncharacteristically used a volley fire for the first couple of minutes. That is the only time in all the history of the Indian Wars that they showed that much discipline.

Nothing could have saved Custer that day except a massive infusion of troops, repeating rifles, or possibly having the Gatling guns offered to him that he supposedly refused. Even then he would have had to found some way to induce the Sioux/Cheyenne to attack him.

[Michael.SF.]

Nothing could have saved Custer that day except a massive infusion of troops, repeating rifles, or possibly having the Gatling guns offered to him that he supposedly refused.

Two comments:

Custer's downfall was that he learned to late that the Indians battlefield tactics had changed. He fought as he was use to fighting. The Indians did not, they adapted.

He did in fact refuse the Gatling guns, as he thought them impractical against Indians on horse back.

Although many Indians had repeaters, as you have said, I thought they was the exception, not the rule. I am not sure on how many repeaters the Indians actually had.

[LS]

Absolutely right on the Indians' use of repeaters. What Fox found, however, was that the Indians' repeater ammo was mingled right amongst the cavalry---not 50 yards away, as if the soldiers were shot down from range, but as if the enemy had used the grass and ravines to conceal their approach until they were right on top of them.

Also, as you well know, and has been documented many places, the cavalry's carbines were notorious for jamming.

[LS]

Absolutely right on the Indians' use of repeaters. What Fox found, however, was that the Indians' repeater ammo was mingled right amongst the cavalry---not 50 yards away, as if the soldiers were shot down from range, but as if the enemy had used the grass and ravines to conceal their approach until they were right on top of them.

Also, as you well know, and has been documented many places, the cavalry's carbines were notorious for jamming.

[CIDKauf]

“So, with all this movement, consolidation and change, what was the size of the village, and how many Indians were there to confront Custer and the 7th Cavalry on June 25th? In answer we again turn to the above named book by Dr. John S. Gray. It is his estimate, after much analysis, that the village was comprised of approximately 1,000 lodges, of which around 120 were Cheyenne. This made for a village of about 7, 120 people, 1,780 of which were adult males. The ranks of those fighting that day may have been swelled to 2,000 by the inclusion of older youths, some seniors and women. But this would be a maximum. Not everyone fought, let alone all at once. And certainly, not everyone fought on all fields of battle. This is irrelevant, however. There were sufficient numbers willing to fight to get the job done.”

From:http://home.comcast.net/~jbusse1/