General Custer was betrayed at Little Bighorn (and the story of the officer who tried to stop it)

Custer's Last Stand History Portal ^ | 02/15/07 | custerwest

[CIDKauf]

Every time we talk this over, I’m a little smarter drzz. I believe you are correct, that even with some teens, seniors and women, the force would not have been greater than 2,000 of fighting age, and maybe a village of 7100 counting everybody in all bands.

http://home.comcast.net/~jbusse1/

[An Old Marine]

No one can be exactly certain of the number of repeaters the Sioux/Cheyenne had however Sgt Mark Latham of the Canadian Police met a large Sioux band about a month after the massacre of Custer. He states every one of the Indians were armed with Winchesters and more importantly Henry Rifles. The Henry was a high velocity, heavy round that was easily fired and extremely accurate.

There is nearly absolute proof, both archeological and narative (there were far more live witnesses than usually thought), that the Indians fired two volleys from behind the crest of the hill. Loss of even 20% of Custers force (and it was probably more than that) in the first seconds of the battle would have been fatal to the 7th Cavalry. The Indians then attacked in their normal warrior method of fighting taking the fight among the troopers of the 7th hence the repeating rounds found among them. The 7th by that time would have been broken, disorganized, and doomed.

He did in fact refuse the Gatling guns, as he thought them impractical against Indians on horse back.

True. You will remember I said that Custer would have had to induce the Indians to attack him. This assumption is that Custer would assume a defensive posture and force the Sioux/Cheyenne warriors to attack him over ground of his choosing. Coupled with Gatling guns this would have almost certainly changed the outcome of the battle. Custer should have known this tactic since he saw the south use it repeatedly and very effectively during the Civil War.

I personaly think that he just was A. not smart enough and B. just totally enamored with the perceived glory of a classic cavalry charge.

Custer's downfall was that he learned to late that the Indians battlefield tactics had changed. He fought as he was use to fighting. The Indians did not, they adapted.

Precisely.

[CIDKauf]

Remembering that Crazy Horse led a fight at Redbud Creek that resulted in an Indian victory shortly before Little Bighorn.

[An Old Marine]

There were two volleys by the Sioux/Cheyenne into the 7th from behind the military crest of the hill. This is incidentally the same tactic that Wellington used against Napleon's Old Guard to such devastating effect. Almost no unit can take those kind of losses and pick up the pieces. The 7th was doomed within seconds of first contact.

There is consderable archeological as well as narative evidence to this effect. The rounds found closer among the troopers are there since the Indians held the discipline of a firing line for only the few seconds to fire the two volleys then resumed their normal warrior style fighting.

[An Old Marine]

According to my greatuncle, whose father helped cook Custer’s goose, there were relatively few Indians involved. There were only about 250 Indians that broke Custer’s attack and very probably broke the cohesiveness of his command. After that it was merely a case of the Sioux/Cheyenne running down the survivors.

[CIDKauf]

263 US Cavalry died that day.

[An Old Marine]

True. Actually a band of northern Cheyenne had attached themselves to Crazy Horse just prior to Redbud and were probably behind both victories.

Among that small band were about 30-35 members of the Dog Society (think Marine Recon or SEAL lifers) armed with Henry rifles. Futher at least three members of that band had served with the South during the Civil War. Indian naratives atribute plan and execution of the initial ambush of Custer to this small number of Cheyenne warriors.

Its not only likely but even certain that or something like that happened to not only change the usual way Plains Indians fought but to do so effectively. After the serious losses in the opening seconds of the battle the Indians piled onto the the doomed 7th.

[An Old Marine]

263 US Cavalry died that day.

Sorry I miss the point?

[CIDKauf]

“After crossing the Wolf Mountains and the Divide, Custer and his adjutant drew off to the side and figured on paper for a few minutes. When they returned to the head of the line they brought with them instructions on dividing up the regiment. The first assignment was given to Captain Frederick Benteen. The regiment was to be divided up into three battalions, a fourth battalion comprising of Company B and a mixed lot from all the other companies had already been formed earlier in the day. Custer would command one battalion while the only Major (Reno) in the regiment would command a second. But a third battalion would need a commander so Custer made the highest ranking company commander (Benteen) a virtual major. He was given companies D, K nad H, the second, fourth, and sixth companies in rank in the six-company Left Wing of the Seventh Cavalry. Benteen was to scout off to the left and alert Custer if Indians or camps were discovered in any valleys to the south.

The battalion company commanders were listed in rank first to third as...
Captain Thomas Benton Weir (D)
1st Lieutenant Edward Settle Godfrey (K)
1st Lieutenant Francis Marion Gibson (H)

Based on this list Weir should have led the scout due to his seniority. But based on information, usually overlooked, that formation never materialized. In fact this information suggests that Company H with the least senior officer (Gibson) led the scout. How can this be you say?”

[CIDKauf]

Dog soldiers were more Southern Cheyenne...Red Kettle

[CIDKauf]

Soldiers retreating from Redbud were not close enough to help in a Battle like Little Bighorn, but could have been.

[CIDKauf]

5th Special Forces...

[thomasjefferson1215]

Custer violated the military axiom of dividing his force when faced with a superior force. The entire regiment would have likely defeated the Indians, but divided into three columns it was defeated.

The main blame belongs to Custer....but Weir, Benteen and Reno get part as well.

[Cvengr]

Concur. I haven’t studied the sequence of events for a while.

[LS]

Don’t know Gray. I know Stewart and many other Custer experts, who claim the village was easily 2-3 times that big.

[tear gas]

Custer was a liberal, right?

[LS]

Fox found no such archeological evidence of Indians firing "volleys." He found repeaters in Indian hands. But there was in fact no evidence whatsoever that ANYONE fired "volleys." It was sporadic, steadily infiltrating fire, which caused Keough to move TOWARD Custer. Moreover, Custer's men were never sufficiently coalesced for volleys to have been that effective. Evidence that (I might get my directions mixed up) he was far to the northwest of the village before returning, and began taking fire at the bottom of the hill/ravine, before gradually moving up to (and past) "Custer Hill."

Even allowing for substantial pilferage of cartridges, Fox's archaeological evidence based on the post-fire, newly revealed ground, would STILL have revealed SOME evidence of lines, or groups, of shell casings if there were volleys. But he found no such evidence.

[LS]

I question this "change of tactics." Just previously, a battle where we have considerable evidence from both sides, Crook and Crazy Horse fought to a draw. Not a lot were killed on either side. But there were no reports whatsoever of Cheyenne using anything other than typical plains Indians tactics. Nor, afterwards, in any of the remaining skirmishes with Sitting Bull's forces, were they any reports of "volleys."

Moreover, it is utterly incomprehensible that the Indians would develop such a western European tactic virtually overnight, then only use it one time. Such a tactic took months of training, and even Muslim armies, well acquainted with it, never mastered it.

[An Old Marine]

I must disagree.

Two points fairly recently several archeologist found a line of spent shells along the military crest of the ridge. of course there were only a few hundred of the shells which holds with the volleys.

Regrading the abilities of the Sioux/Cheyenne: Nonsense.

By 1880 several dozen memberss of the Sioux nation, not to mention Cheyenne, had served with the south (and Union to a lesser extent) during the war. Don't you think they brought anything home? They are hardly Muslims. Secondly the Southern Cheyenne had a larger number of the Dog Society however the Northern by that time had absorbed a number of southern Cheyenne. I submit personnel evidence. My great grandfather as well as a great uncle were Dog Soldiers and one of them fought Custer. That same great uncle fought at Peabody Ridge and Vicksburg and appears on Confederate unit rolls. And he was not alone.

Further there is this - my experience. 38 years (off and on) as a Marine will tell you that the only way irregular troops (and Injuns were irregular) could win this fight was through surprise and firepower. There are 5 separate narative accounts of volley fire that I am aware of. Further it fits. Breaking the spam pf control and cohesion of the unit is the only way the Sioux/Cheyenne could have won that day.

Besides do you really expect me to doubt the word of my grandfather....

[An Old Marine]

Never did much "special work" mostly was busy just beng part of the 5th Marines

and for me thats all I aspired to...

Semper Fidelis