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A Test for Exotic Propulsion?
Centauri-Dreams ^ | 10/12/09 | Paul Gilster

Posted on 10/12/2009 1:33:28 PM PDT by LibWhacker

Can we calculate the gravitational field of a mass moving close to the speed of light? Franklin Felber (Starmark Inc) believes he can, with implications for propulsion. Back in 2006 we looked briefly at Felber’s work, describing what the physicist believes to be a repulsive gravitational field that emerges from his results. Felber discussed the matter at the Space Technology and Applications International meeting that year, where he presented his calculations of the ‘relativistically exact motion of a payload in the gravitational field of a source moving with constant velocity.’

Above a certain critical velocity, Felber believes, any mass will gravitationally repel other masses, an effect that is twice as strong in the forward direction of motion, but also works in the backward direction. An object lying in the narrow beam thus produced could be accelerated quickly and with little stress. He described the effect in a paper he submitted in 2005 to the arXiv site:

At radial approach or recession speeds faster than 3-1/2 times the speed of light, even a small mass gravitationally repels a payload. At relativistic speeds, a suitable mass can quickly propel a heavy payload from rest nearly to the speed of light with negligible stresses on the payload.

In other words, a mass moving faster than roughly 57.7 percent of the speed of light will repel other masses that are placed within what we could call an ‘antigravity beam’ in front or in back of it. If true, the effect would provide the energy source needed to produce accelerations otherwise impossible. In Felber’s studies, the supposed ‘antigravity’ effect becomes stronger as the mass approaches the speed of light more and more closely.

The advantages are listed in Felber’s recent 2009 paper:

This new means of ‘antigravity’ propulsion addresses the major engineering challenges for near-light-speed space travel of providing enormous propulsion energy quickly without undue stresses on a spacecraft. By conventional propulsion, acceleration of a 1-ton payload to 0.9c requires imparting a kinetic energy equivalent to about 30 billion tons of TNT. In the ‘antigravity beam’ of a speeding star or compact object, however, a payload would draw its energy for propulsion from the repulsive force of the much more massive driver. Moreover, since it would be moving along a geodesic, a payload would ‘float weightlessly’ in the ‘antigravity beam’ even as it was accelerated close to the speed of light.

The effect would take place within a narrow cone, but would be extraordinarily useful, in Felber’s view, if we could find a way to tap it, for the energy needs to reach these high velocities would be available naturally, and the stresses of acceleration would be manageable tidal forces in free-fall motion along a geodesic. The result is what Felber calls ‘hypervelocity propulsion.’

To say this is problematic is to state the obvious. How to tap into these energies? Here’s Felber’s thought on that, from the 2006 paper:

Whether the payload is accelerated by a strong or a weak field, the payload travels along a geodesic. The only stresses on the payload, therefore, are the result of tidal forces in the accelerated frame of the payload. These stresses can be arranged by choice of the trajectory to be kept within acceptable limits. Greater practical problems for gravitational propulsion are finding a suitable and accessible driver mass at relativistic velocities, and maneuvering the payload in and out of the driver trajectory.

The italics are mine, highlighting a key issue — if Felber’s work (which draws on a 1924 David Hilbert paper that discussed the repulsion of relativistic particles by a static Schwarzschild field) is correct, then we still have the problem of arranging our payload in relation to the driver mass. In other words, taking advantage of these effects would itself require breakthroughs in space propulsion that would render the advantage of using the effect minimal. It would assume a highly advanced space infrastructure, one capable of ranging freely through deep space, and apparently a lot of luck.

But let’s put aside practicality and look at the effect itself. Theories abound and what we need are workable ways of testing them, which is why so many people are dissatisfied with the various string theory formulations — how do we confirm what seem to be purely mathematical constructs? Felber’s new paper argues that the Large Hadron Collider will be capable of testing his ideas by measuring the forces on a test mass. The physicist believes such a test could be performed without interfering with normal LHC operations, assuming we get the LHC to ‘normal’ operations any time soon.

Felber’s experiment would measure “… the repulsive gravitational impulses of proton bunches delivered in their forward direction to resonant detectors just outside the beam pipe. This test could provide accurate measurements of post-Newtonian parameters and the first observation of ‘antigravity’, as well as validating the potential utility of relativistic gravity for spacecraft propulsion in the distant future.” He believes such a test could be performed for less than one percent of the cost of NASA’s Gravity Probe B, whose total tariff may well have reached $1 billion. Lab tests can be cheaper than space tests, but will Felber’s ideas attact the needed funding even at these levels?

The 2009 paper is Felber, “Test of relativistic gravity for propulsion at the Large Hadron Collider” (abstract), while the 2006 paper is “Exact Relativistic ‘Antigravity’ Propulsion” (abstract). Technology Review looks at Felber here.



TOPICS: Astronomy; Science
KEYWORDS: antigravity; collider; electrogravitics; exotic; gravity; hadron; large; largehadroncollider; lhc; podkletnov; propulsion; relativity; stringtheory; supercollider
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1 posted on 10/12/2009 1:33:28 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker

Aw, man.

I had hoped for something else...


2 posted on 10/12/2009 1:42:15 PM PDT by El Sordo
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To: LibWhacker

Fascinating stuff, I’m probably incorrectly visualizing this, but I could see maybe a torus with a donut-shaped mass going at a significant percentage of the speed of light moving around the torus. The donut would have a slice cut out of it so a spacecraft could be moved into the path of it without colliding. Sort of a stargate for instantaneous acceleration.


3 posted on 10/12/2009 1:43:32 PM PDT by Brett66 (Where government advances, and it advances relentlessly , freedom is imperiled -Janice Rogers Brown)
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To: El Sordo

I thought it said “erotic”, too.


4 posted on 10/12/2009 1:44:57 PM PDT by SIDENET ("If that's your best, your best won't do." -Dee Snider)
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To: LibWhacker
I was just talking about this very issue with my hillbilly mechanic... although he thought he could test his theory with a potato launcher and a can of hair spray. very cool..
5 posted on 10/12/2009 1:56:10 PM PDT by j_guru
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To: LibWhacker
In other words, a mass moving faster than roughly 57.7 percent of the speed of light will repel other masses that are placed within what we could call an ‘antigravity beam’ in front or in back of it.

Great. Just this morning I told my wife it was 57.4 percent the speed of light. Now I gotta order some flowers and apologize.

6 posted on 10/12/2009 2:29:12 PM PDT by LearnsFromMistakes (Yes, I am happy to see you. But that IS a gun in my pocket.)
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To: LibWhacker

bump


7 posted on 10/12/2009 2:30:17 PM PDT by dangerdoc
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To: LibWhacker
then we still have the problem of arranging our payload in relation to the driver mass. In other words, taking advantage of these effects would itself require breakthroughs in space propulsion that would render the advantage of using the effect minimal.

Creating the required force in a balanced way would require a wide area of accelerated massive particles meticulously aimed. If that can be achieved the secondary effect of propulsion itself almost becomes a moot point.
8 posted on 10/12/2009 2:55:12 PM PDT by allmost
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To: SunkenCiv

Ping.


9 posted on 10/12/2009 2:59:13 PM PDT by allmost
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To: allmost; KevinDavis; AdmSmith; bvw; callisto; ckilmer; dandelion; ganeshpuri89; gobucks; ...
Thanks allmost. It's the first time in ages we've had three pingworthy topics all at once. :')

· List topics · post a topic · subscribe · Google ·

10 posted on 10/13/2009 3:52:45 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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To: LibWhacker; ALASKA; ActionNewsBill; airborne; A knight without armor; albertp; areafiftyone; ...

THANKS.

Am reminded of all those chronic naysayers who claim it’s impossible to travel that fast or faster.

. . . as though THEY designed the whole multiverse . . .

and have KNOWN everything since before their conception in mummy’s womb.


11 posted on 10/13/2009 6:55:22 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix

“who claim it’s impossible to travel that fast or faster.”

Here is the difference between us naysayers and you true believers. If a physicist can prove with repeatable testing that objects can go faster than light, then I will accept it as a proven fact. If, however, their testing proves nothing can exceed the speed of light you will continue to believe in visits from aliens, even though the thousands of years of travel it would take to reach earth would convince any normal person to accept it is beyond the realm of possibility.

That is the difference, I believe ultimately in science, and you believe in whatever confirms what you want so badly to believe in.


12 posted on 10/13/2009 10:18:48 AM PDT by yazoo (Conservatives believe what they see. Liberals see what they believe.)
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To: LibWhacker

Pure dreck.


13 posted on 10/13/2009 10:32:57 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (Public healthcare looks like it will work as well as public housing did.)
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To: yazoo; AU72; aragorn; B-Chan; A knight without armor; BigSkyVic; BreezyDog; DollyCali; GingisK; ...

WRONG

yet again.

1. Your worship at the altar of a virtually certain TYPE II ERROR mentality is still astonishing.

2. Much in the science text books is wrong . . . deliberately.

3. I came at this without any preconceived notions. It was merely an interesting curiosity. I was neutral—as neutral as anyone could be, on all the key variables. . . . from a science fiction interest. You seem to have an incapacity or unwillingness to BELIEVE THE TRUTH about that. Obviously, your skills as a psychologist you are not—not your role, not your profession, IIRC, are not top flight.

4. I have merely followed the information for these 47+ years—wherever it has led. I’m still merely following the information. You seem to be the one with the axe to grind about it all.

5. Thankfully, I had a close relative work around the craft.

6. And, I’ve interviewed a surprising number of world renowned experts in the field quite a number of hours worth.

7. And, I’ve read many 10,000’s of pages of documentation.

8. Some of my close friends have had profound experiences in the field.

9. And, I seem to be a several 100 percent more fair minded than you seem capable of or willing to risk.

10. The fellow who headed Lockeed Skunk Works was CERTAINLY NO slouch, as a scientist. He didn’t have any doubts about the capacity to travel faster than light. I find his career and expertise in the field enormously greater than yours.


14 posted on 10/13/2009 10:53:34 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: PapaBear3625

So . . . in what type of data storage modules plugged into what parts of your brain do you store all this exhaustive and complete knowledge of the multiverse?

Is Grandpa Bear impressed yet?


15 posted on 10/13/2009 11:10:58 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: Quix
Above a certain critical velocity, Felber believes, any mass will gravitationally repel other masses, an effect that is twice as strong in the forward direction of motion, but also works in the backward direction.

"Above a certain critical velocity" RELATIVE TO WHAT?

From the viewpoint of the Earth, stars at the edge of the observable universe are moving away from us at close to the speed of light. From the viewpoint of somebody on one of those stars, WE are moving away from THEM at close to the speed of light. Do we observe the repulsion phenomenon here on Earth, keeping in mind that Earth can be considered to be moving at close to the speed of light in any direction relative to some observer somewhere?

The essence of Relativity was the realization that there is no absolute frame of reference, there is only motion relative to some particular observer.

16 posted on 10/13/2009 11:20:58 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (Public healthcare looks like it will work as well as public housing did.)
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To: PapaBear3625

I think I understand that passably well.

. . .

I also understand that Einstein didn’t have everything all figured out.

Or, that if he did, a lot has been witheld from putlic knowledge.


17 posted on 10/13/2009 11:27:29 AM PDT by Quix (POL Ldrs quotes fm1900 2 presnt: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2130557/posts?page=81#81)
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To: LibWhacker

When I go to http://www.centauri-dreams.org/?p=9758 I get a blank brown page. Is there something I need to enable to view it? Thanks


18 posted on 10/13/2009 11:36:07 AM PDT by Captain Beyond (The Hammer of the gods! (Just a cool line from a Led Zep song))
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To: LibWhacker

“Can we calculate the gravitational field of a mass moving close to the speed of light?”

Relative to what? There is something very much missing in this whole discussion. Velocity (speed is not the same thing) must be measure relative to something. If two objects both traveling in the same direction, at half the “speed” of light (relative to another object), relative to each other, their velocity is zero.

The relativistic effects are just that, relative. Have my doubts about the “negative” gravity affect, but even it were true, the mass producing that effect would have to be moving at half the velocity of light relative to whatever was effected by it. Don’t see how it would be around long enough to produce much of a result.

Hank


19 posted on 10/13/2009 12:18:42 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Captain Beyond
It works for me. I'm not sure what's wrong... Try http://www.centauri-dreams.org. It'll be the second article from the top.
20 posted on 10/13/2009 3:49:19 PM PDT by LibWhacker
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