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Jacques Vallee: Of Crop Circles, meme wars and web-based flypaper
Boing Boing ^ | June 21, 2010 | Jacques Vallee

Posted on 06/23/2010 5:50:16 PM PDT by shibumi

Based on the three earlier posts I have made on this subject, an objective reader might be justified to conclude either that crop circles are the product of hoaxes or the result of experimental military developments. In both cases he or she would also have to admit that they represent a masterful project in social engineering. If they are hoaxes, the authors have succeeded in capturing the attention of the world in a way that few works of art even achieve. Their productions are surrounded with mystery and the breathless suggestion of Alien contact or ancient druidic magic. The designs even hint at a cosmic signal about the future of our species.

If they are military experiments hidden in plain sight, then the social manipulation of information that serves as camouflage is a remarkable achievement. It shows that the most open form of public communication in the world, namely the web, can be used as a device to hide the reality of a massive technological effort and to distort the debate about the tools it uses and the goals it pursues. Those of us interested in the evolution and future of the Internet should take notice.

Most of the discussion about the circles in books, magazines and websites has been devoted to the physical methods that may be used to generate them: from wooden boards, rakes and brooms to beams from hovering platforms (my personal choice) or even orbiting satellites. Sadly, the social engineering aspect, which represents an equally great achievement, has rarely been mentioned. For me that aspect is the most fascinating part of the crop circle phenomenon, and I submit that the dialogue we have seen on Boing Boing illustrates it well. What we have here is a remarkable example of misdirection around a stunning experiment that remains in full view of a wide public that consistently fails to ask the right questions and keeps re-asserting bogus answers.

The unveiling of the "Doug and Dave" hoax itself was a notable example of media promotion. The two British retirees enjoyed front-page articles in the international press and special placement on prime time on world TV programs, a treatment usually reserved for major world events or announcements supported by heavy, professionally-managed advertising budgets. Their "revelation" had an immediate, irreversible effect of locking the concept of crop circles as a hoax in the mind of a very large public, most notably the academic and 'intellectual' community.

As we saw in the responses to my previous posts it is extraordinarily difficult to dislodge such a certainty and re-open the minds of people to alternate views once they have satisfactorily locked onto such an easy, convenient explanation. The presentation of new facts (such as the node explosion that lies beyond the technical capability of our friends Doug and Dave, or the recent announcement that the military had, in fact, deployed beam weapons fired from above) makes no difference in the debate because people just ignore it As we saw, most of the responses to my earlier posts simply re-asserted an existing position (sometimes with considerable aggression) rather than debating the relevance of new data.

This goes well beyond crop circles. For those of us who have followed the development of networks for many years the lessons are sobering. The web is becoming the medium of choice for disinformation and misinformation, including official efforts to inject new "memes" into the culture. Although I remain an optimist about the web as a medium for free exchanges of data and faster communication of high value, it is also a potential tool for propaganda, false rumors intentionally planted and for a range of techniques designed to alter or filter social reality.

This intentional distortion has certainly become a fact of life among ufologists. It seems that every month or so some website claims to have received data from a hidden source, often a "highly-placed" defense or intelligence person, about UFO crashes, live Aliens, secret missions to Mars or contact with hush-hush cosmic locations such as Ummo, Serpo and other wonderful places. The curious thing is that, in cases when it has been possible to reverse-engineer these links, they were often found to originate within the intelligence community or people close to it. The purpose may be to divert attention from real projects, to confuse an adversary or even to release new ideas to test society's reactions. In such situations the community of UFO believers is used only as a convenient resonating chamber: Since the content can never be checked or the origin verified, there is absolutely nothing a researcher can do with the alleged information: photos of bizarre drones that could be digital fakes (or simply the spines of an umbrella thrown up into the air), blurry glows flying over Mexico, official-looking minutes of U.N. meetings that never happened, actual Presidential papers where a few words have been substituted to suggest official contact with Aliens, or pictures of monsters in the woods. These websites attract plenty of attention and a lot of users who in turn amplify the signal with their own fantasies. The process is reminiscent of flypaper: you deploy a device that will make would-be researchers stick to your concept and spend a lot of time discussing and amplifying it instead of going after real data.

The main result is to disturb, drown or negate genuine research into paranormal phenomena, but the intent may well go beyond this effect. Web social patterns have become a strategic global tool. Like the crop circles themselves, they can now be used to alter the public's perception of the present and the future. Mastering such a tool is well worth a few bent stalks of corn.


TOPICS: Conspiracy; Science; UFO's; Weird Stuff
KEYWORDS: cropcircle; meme; mindcontrol; tinfoil; ufo
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A few interesting comments follow the article (along with a few really dumb ones.)
1 posted on 06/23/2010 5:50:23 PM PDT by shibumi
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To: Salamander; Slings and Arrows; Markos33; JoeProBono; humblegunner; Eaker; kanawa; ...

Raniy-Day-Afternoon-Ping


2 posted on 06/23/2010 5:53:47 PM PDT by shibumi ((Topop!!!!!))
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To: All
Sorry! I should have included this information about the author,


"Jacques Vallee is a computer scientist, partner in a venture capital firm, and author of more than 20 books, including Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying Saucers, The Invisible College, and The Network Revolution."
3 posted on 06/23/2010 5:57:29 PM PDT by shibumi ((Topop!!!!!))
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To: shibumi

Interpretación Crop Circles mayo y junio 2010 – Fernando Correa

tercermilenio — June 21, 2010 — Fernando Correa presenta la interpretación de algunos crop circles aparecidos en mayo y junio de 2010.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhXFO-vwqSs


4 posted on 06/23/2010 6:06:02 PM PDT by rosettasister
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To: shibumi

THX. Will check it out.


5 posted on 06/23/2010 8:43:08 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: shibumi; ALASKA; A knight without armor; areafiftyone; aruanan; A South Park Republican; auggy; ...

A worthy read, I think.

Nothing new . . . but IF one is seriously interested in the topic, it is an interesting review from a given perspective.

UFO B LIST PING.


6 posted on 06/23/2010 8:46:38 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: shibumi; ALASKA; A knight without armor; areafiftyone; aruanan; A South Park Republican; auggy; ...

A worthy read, I think.

Nothing new . . . but IF one is seriously interested in the topic, it is an interesting review from a given perspective.

UFO B LIST PING.


7 posted on 06/23/2010 9:13:36 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Quix
Crop circles are no hoax. They are real! As real as the people who designed and produced them.

So, what did I say? Nothing, really.

I put the 'believers' in the same class as those who believed obammy's line of crap. Lookin' for hope in all the wrong places.

Twas I (I'm pretty sure) who originally noted on a well-known BBS that the tram lines were necessary to construct a crop circle.

Show me one that does not have them. This automatically eliminates the 'gods' and/or their cohorts (aliens), as they don't have the technology to make the tram lines.

Haha.

8 posted on 06/23/2010 11:01:50 PM PDT by Eastbound
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To: shibumi
Crop circle?

Sounds like a good ordinance name ä la ‘daisy cutter’, but for dealing with aliens of the illegal variety. (or something)
9 posted on 06/23/2010 11:58:02 PM PDT by Fichori ('Wee-Weed Up' pitchfork wielding neolithic caveman villager with lit torch. Any questions?)
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To: Quix

There was apparently a crop circle that appeared on a farm about 2 miles down the road from me (just out of town). None of the reports I’ve read indicate exactly which farm it was - I just know what road it’s on, and that it’s a few miles out. I wish I could figure out which farm it was myself though. I’d be curious to actually talk to the farmer who found it. There’s a rumor that a couple years later that section of the field won’t grow anything, but that’s all I know — just the rumor. :)
Good article though, thanks for the ping. It’s interesting to say the least.


10 posted on 06/24/2010 12:22:38 AM PDT by LibertyRocks (http://libertyrocks.wordpress.com ~ Anti-Obama Gear: http://cafepress.com/NO_ObamaBiden08)
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To: Eastbound

YOU ARE SIMPLY WRONG.

There have been cropcircles without tramlines.

More importantly, there have been peer reviewed scientific journal articles comparing half a dozen or more variables that are very scientifically DIFFERENT about areas within authentic crop circles vs not within the circle and vs hoaxed circles.

http://www.earthfiles.com

Linda Moulton Howe’s website has the journal articles in her archives.

There is no longer any excuse for ignorance or cluelessness about the topic.

Bias is not truth.

As ATSers say:

DENY IGNORANCE a chance.


11 posted on 06/24/2010 1:50:05 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: LibertyRocks

INTERESTING. THX.


12 posted on 06/24/2010 1:51:18 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: LibertyRocks; ALASKA; ActionNewsBill; A knight without armor; albertp; aragorn; areafiftyone; ...

UFO A LEVEL PING LIST PING:

VERY FASCINATING STORY RE WHITMAN AFB BELOW AND AT

HTTP://WWW.EARTHFILES.COM

SOME GLEANINGS FROM LINDA MOULTON HOWE’S WEBSITE. TONIGHT SHE’S ON C2C:

JUSTICE FOR THE BENTWATERS 81st Security Police at Rendlesham Forest 1980

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=118776534810576

@@@@

http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1725&category=Environment

Aerial Disc Beam Penetrated Nuclear Weapons At Whiteman AFB

© 2010 by Linda Moulton Howe

“I had climbed up on the nuclear weapons igloo looking at this
bluish-red light that was coming straight down. Then the light started
to do a grid pattern! And I was like, ‘This is not happening!’ Just like a grid,
it went to one corner and then started going about every three inches back
and forth doing a grid. And when it got to me, the light actually stopped
because I put my hand into it.”

- Dale Hogan, Former USAF Airman 1st Class

. . .

The 509th Bombardment Wing officially became part of the U. S. Eighth Air Force in November 1947, evolved through many other air divisions and today is part of the Global Strike Command in the U. S. Eighth Air Force, now based at Whiteman AFB southeast of Kansas City, Missouri. The Whiteman name honors that Pearl Harbor pilot, George Whiteman, the first U. S. pilot to die in World War II.

The modern 509th Bomber Wing operates the B-2 Spirit stealth bomber out of Whiteman AFB.

. . . .

But the irony is that back in the fall of 1984, at Whiteman AFB, a large, black, silent, aerial disc apparently had total access to the nuclear weapons storage areas – with a thin, beam of light!

One of the U. S. Air Force security men who watched the big UFO emit a reddish-blue beam, no wider than a pencil, down on to the dome-shaped nuclear weapons storage facilities was Airman 1st Class Dale Hogan. Dale was born and raised in Florida 47 years ago. His father was in the U. S. Air Force. On August 10, 1982, at age nineteen, Dale enlisted in the U. S. Air Force. Like most new recruits, he was sent to Lackland AFB, Texas, for basic military security training followed by more extensive training and certificates in rocket launches, M-60 and M-203 artillery and air base ground defense. [ See More Information below.]

. . .

At Whiteman AFB in 1984, nuclear warheads were stored in two dome-shaped “igloos” called 4018 and 4020.

One night in September or October 1984, Airmen Hogan and George were having trouble keeping their jeep going. The engine kept cutting out. Their radios were also full of static. Bravo Flight’s Shift Commander told them to park the jeep, so they pulled up in front of nuclear weapons igloo 4018. It was around 2 AM.

Suddenly Airman Dale Hogan felt sluggish, like everything around him was slowing down. He was confused when the hair on his arms rose straight up. He saw that Airman George’s hair on his head was also sticking straight up. Former USAF Airman 1st Class Dale Hogan describes what happened over the next several hours at Whiteman AFB, Missouri, in the fall of 1984.

. . .

I think it was towards the end of summer (early fall, September to October 1984). And George is looking at me and said,‘Well, all your hair is sticking up!’

I kept touching the jeep and getting little sparks off my fingers. I wondered what was causing that on a cool, clear night? There were no clouds.

Anyway, I get out of the jeep and I’m looking around and I see on top of 4018, I see this pencil-thin bluish-red light right center on the igloo. I started yelling for George to come out of the jeep and look at this.

[SEE DRAWING AT THE LINK]

. . .

I said, ‘George, there is something there!’ I’m asking George, ‘What is the flight restriction?’ Because I was looking up and I could see this black disc. I know it wasn’t an airplane! But protocol being protocol, I tried getting hold of ALPHA 1 and SECURITY 1.
My radio kept breaking up and I was asked to go to a different channel, which I did. Again, the radio kept breaking up and I couldn’t get them to come to my location where George and I were.

George, in the mean time, was telling me to get off the igloo because now I had climbed up on the nuclear weapons igloo looking at this bluish-red light that was coming straight down. Then the light started to do a grid pattern! And I was like, ‘This is not happening!’ Just like a grid, it went to one corner and then started going about every three inches back and forth doing a grid. And when it got to me, the light actually stopped because I put my hand into it.

. . .

SEE DRAWING AT LINK

George was telling me not to do this. I said, ‘George, I have to know!’

Well, when I put my hand into the beam of light, it changed color real quick to like a purple and my hand was like numb! Like pins and needles as if you sat on your hand or fall asleep wrong and you lose the blood flow to your arm? That’s how my whole hand felt. It felt just like pins and needles.

. . .

DRAWING AT LINK

. . .

THIS WAS ON ONE OF THE IGLOOS?

It did that on three of them. What the light did was it went to one igloo. Then it went to the next one with beam of light and next one with beam of light - and it kept shooting the beam of light down into the igloo. And it moved.!

. . .

Knowing full well it was not a Harrier jet over my head because there was absolutely no noise coming from this thing. And I said, ‘I’ve got to ask a stupid question - is this an exercise going on?’

And they said, ‘Negative, Alpha 4 Bravo. There is no exercise in progress.’

I said, ‘Well, do you have anything on radar then? Can you get hold of the tower and ask them if they see anything on radar?’

They said, ‘What is going on, Alpha 4 Bravo?’

I said, ‘You have a UFO roughly 50 feet in diameter that is 55 to 100 feet over my head and I’m looking straight at it and it’s the black Ace of Spades.’

And it is sniffing the igloo! At which point in time, they told me to stand by. Then all of a sudden, all the base aerial lighting went off.

. . .

Well, Michael Garcia pulls up with Chewy from the weapons facility and I show him by pointing up to the disc in the sky. And Garcia is going, ‘Oh, my God! oh, my God! I wish I had a camera. This is the real McCoy!’ We’re looking at the disc just hovering there doing its grid pattern across the igloos.

. . .

That’s when we started hearing the Harrier Jump jets fire up. So, they are coming to life out there on the tarmac and within ten minutes they come up and they head over towards the igloo and WHEW!!!! The UFO goes! Left those jets standing there like it was nothing!

Then it stopped on a dime and the Harrier jets could not turn and keep up with it. Apparently, the UFO dragged those jets way off in the distance and then the UFO shot right back to where we were. This lasted for 2.5 to 3 hours – this whole event. And the UFO came back to continue doing the grid pattern search on the igloos.

. . .

And came straight to my location where George and I were. The driver jumps out of the vehicle, comes over to us. Now, here comes the second vehicle while this officer is talking to us – the second car is coming up and now you see it is pulling a trailer. So the second vehicle comes up through the facility and never stops for nobody. It was given a green light clean through! Again, this is breaching nuclear weapons facility protocol.

. . .

SEE DRAWING OF SPECIAL CAMERA ON TRAILER THAT CAME WITH OFFICERS AT LINK

. . .

And I asked, ‘Sir, permission to fire?’ I said, ‘It has been probing these igloos.’

And he said, ‘Son, you will NOT fire on that UFO! They have more firepower than you could ever shake a stick at and it will blow you and me to smithereens! So, you HOLD !’

And I said, ‘Sir, I’ve already put rounds in my weapon because I’m that damn scared!’

And he said, ‘Point your weapon at the ground and remove that ammo.’

Why do I think that is strange is because this officer told me they had more firepower than I would ever know. But I didn’t know anything about what they called UFO officers (in the military), or UFO officers on military installations just for UFO events! That’s what his job was!

. . . .

And they popped down the sides (of the trailer) and they mounted this camera onto a tripod. So, they were pulling a trailer that was fully equipped and ready to go for a full tripod-mount camera.

I want to say the wheels on this thing were probably 8 to 10 inches in diameter. And the lens was about ten inches around! So, this was a huge, big, fat lens! I’ll never forget that.

And the officer then pointed to the two crew men - I never saw their faces – up towards where the UFO was and they were now filming it.

Then, here come the jump jets come flying overhead and the UFO took off again. But it’s not over because as soon as the jump jets get clear across on the other side of Whiteman AFB, here it comes on back! Now the UFO is overhead, back over the 4020 igloo again doing another grid pattern on the igloo.

. . .

He then looks at me and orders George and me to go back to our location. And I said, ‘Sir, this is MY location. This is OUR location. We have nowhere else to go.’

Then he said, ‘I’m ordering you to stop watching the UFO!’

‘Not to watch the UFO no more?’ I said, ‘Sir, what do you want me to do?’ He said, ‘I want you to look at the ground, that’s what I want you to do.’

. . . .

In the meantime, my hand is hurting like hell. I’m looking at George and said, ‘I don’t know what that light did, but it really messed up my hand. I can’t feel it – it’s numb! It feels like pins and needles and has that stinging sensation going on like when your blood flow is trying to come back to your hand after you’ve laid on it for awhile?’

And George says, ‘I tried to tell you not to put your hand in it.’

Anyway, we’re watching the Harrier jets go back and forth until they apparently ran out of fuel and were all forced to go back and land. So, the UFO did its thing and checked out a few more igloos with beams of light shooting down into each igloo and then it was gone. It’s around 4 or 4:30 AM, but I’m not sure of the time because George’s watch did stop. His watch was not working.

. . .

Nope, nothing. So, around towards the end of this event, the UFO - that was now over our head by maybe 1,000 feet – turned to a bright, silverfish-white light and that thing shot straight up – I’m going to say at least 20,000 mph!

I mean this thing you could see the size of maybe a 50-cents piece went to nothing within probably 3 seconds. And it just shot straight up and went and where it got up to where it was almost nothing, it shot off in a 90-degree angle just as fast as it was going straight up and then disappeared.

The officer and film crew at that point left. The vehicles were not checked, they were not inspected. The security gates opened up and they were gone. Again, that’s a violation of a nuclear facility protocol.

. . .

But what was strange about this airplane coming in – and that’s what I told George - ‘We’re screwed!’ The airplane landed with no tail numbers. We’re so close to the runway that I can see the pilots during the daytime, but it was light enough then to see that there was no USAF insignia, there were no tail numbers, there was nothing on this airplane that landed.

Once it touched the ground, it turned off its lights. So the airplane taxied along the runway with no running lights on.

. . .

REST OF NARRATIVE INTERVIEW AT LINDA’S SITE.


13 posted on 06/24/2010 2:22:14 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Quix; Las Vegas Dave

More bit from that interview with Linda Moulton Howe and the Airman from Whitman:

http://www.earthfiles.com/news.php?ID=1725&category=Environment

. . .

And I said, ‘Can I read what I’m signing?’ And he said, ‘No, you cannot. You will sign it!’

But I read the very top of the page: ‘National Non-Disclosure Secrecy Act.’ And in the middle of that paragraph, I saw that if I disclosed what I saw I would be, or have been, under psychiatric care at the time of the incident. And I looked at them and said, ‘How the hell can I be under psychiatric care at the time of any said incident?

WHEN YOUR MILITARY ASSIGNMENT WAS TO OVERSEE THE SECURITY OF THAT WSA THAT HAD NUCLEAR WEAPONS STORED IN IT.

Right, and if I was seeing a psychiatrist at that time, I would not be allowed to carry a weapon. And they yelled at me and once I signed it, they said, ‘Airman Hogan, bullets are cheap! People die all the time. They commit suicide on a regular basis. If you ever disclose what happened this night, you will not like the future. And family members die all the time – horrible deaths! Houses and trailers burn down. People die in car crashes all the time. So, for your family’s sake, I would not disclose what happened tonight.’

And I was very angry, very scared, and very upset that they actually threatened my family over that whole incident.

YOU WERE WARNED THAT ‘BULLETS ARE CHEAP’ AND YOU WERE THREATENED AND THEY THREATENED YOUR FAMILY. WHY ARE YOU SPEAKING TO ME ON JUNE 9, 2010?

I’m not scared any more. The people need to know the truth. They need to know we are not alone, that the government has been hiding UFOs.

. . .

At least thirty soldiers were involved that night at Whiteman AFB, including the Harrier Jump Jet pilots. Afterward, Dale Hogan was told by one of the security officers that “something really fouled up the nuclear warheads” in the 4018 and 4020 igloos.

. . .

photos of all the DD214 etc. documentation of the Airman’s military career are at the link.


14 posted on 06/24/2010 2:30:20 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Quix
I heard a portion of that broadcast, the caller said that when the missiles were disabled the target coordinates were reset, but he did not answer (or know the answer)...

Interesting.

15 posted on 06/24/2010 2:38:06 AM PDT by Las Vegas Dave (To anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a Liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Quix

Thanks as always for the pings!


16 posted on 06/24/2010 5:08:04 AM PDT by DollyCali (Don't tell God how big your storm is...Tell the storm how big your God is!)
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To: Las Vegas Dave

YEAH.

It’s ONE thing to disable the nukes.

It’s quite a DIFFERENT THING to change their target coordinates!


17 posted on 06/24/2010 8:26:22 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: DollyCali

THX FOR YOUR KIND REPLY.


18 posted on 06/24/2010 8:27:01 AM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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To: Quix
Don't change my premise. I didn't say circles were a hoax. I agree they are real.

Who made them was questioned.

Hope I didn't spoil or attack someone's religion or belief system by saying the tramlines were needed.

Show me some that don't have tramlines. I've looked at probably every crop circle published and have not seen one (apart from a simple circle and other simple cofigurations that do not require reference points (tramlines) to construct them.

I repeat, crop circles (in all their strange configurations) are very real. I just have trouble understanding why many superintelligent people are so quick to start a new religion over them, attaching some kind of divine significance to them.

I repeat, show me something intricate that don't have tramlines.

19 posted on 06/24/2010 9:19:32 AM PDT by Eastbound
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To: Eastbound

1. I agree that tramlines are normal in that most are in farmer’s fields. NOT ALL have been in farmer’s fields.

2. I don’t have any links of the rare ones outside of farmer’s fields.

3. You seem to be assuming that people walk down the tramlines and thereby construct the crop circles. That’s demonstrably disproven on 3 points.

4. Intricate circles have been constructed in 40 minutes. That’s too short a time with boards and string etc. etc.

5. The crop plants are not bent by boards and string in authentic circles but evidently by a kind of extremely short birst micro-wave TYPE energy.

6. Many crop circles have been constructed in muddy fields—where footprints in the tramlines or elsewhere would have been very obvious. NO footprints were found whatsoever.

7. Some crop circles have been observed while being formed. Balls of light were seen flitting around—NO people were observed in the fields whatsoever.

8. One well connected FREEER insists that they are formed by exotic space based weapons systems and technicians sitting at computer screens.

YET AGAIN AUTHENTIC CIRCLES [AND NOT HOAXED ONES, NOT CROPS OUTSIDE THE CIRCLES]:

9.1 Have the nodes of the plants slightly exploded & bent by extremely brief bursts of micro-wave energy.

9.2. magnetic anomolies within the circles.

9.3. extremely dry ground within the circles.

9.4. microfine iron dusting within the circles.

9.5. plants grown from seeds from within the circles are

A) significantly more drought resistent;
B) grow significantly faster;
C) grow significantly taller.


20 posted on 06/24/2010 1:37:09 PM PDT by Quix (THE PLAN of the Bosses: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2519352/posts?page=2#2)
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