Indeed. As Nagel writes, "A naturalistic teleology would mean that organizational and developmental principles of this kind are an irreducible part of the natural order, and not the result of intentional or purposive influence by anyone."
But this begs the question. I can agree that organizational and developmental principles are an irreducible part of the natural order. But where did this natural order come from? Did it spring forth "fully formed from the brow of Zeus," as Athena, goddess of reason, did in the Greek myth?
Zeus was an intracosmic god, not a transcendent one. He, like man, is a created being, though unlike man, he is immortal.
I'd say that Nagel is avoiding the real problem of origin. If he insists that the ordering principles of the universe stem from an "immanent" source, this is tantamount to saying that the universe is sui generis: It made itself, including all the ordering principles that govern it. Yet if it had a beginning, it had to be a beginning from "nothing." Pretty good trick! But to me, this is senseless — it tells me nothing about the origin and (emergent or evolutionary) destination of the universe. It is an unanalyzed, "just so" story.
The atheist position requires him to deny transcendence. Which definitely limits his options as a thinker. (Which is why I said in an earlier post that "Nagel is an honest man — as honest as a man who rejects God out-of-hand can be.")
Moreover, he rejects, it seems, any form of dualism, advancing instead a hypothesis of non-material, yet still "natural" monism.
And yet, I do believe the following is Truth:
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: — Romans 1:20One statement of his that I found particularly troubling was his attribution to all "theists" (he never says "Christians," but this is likely who he is talking about) of the belief that "God is responsible for everything." In a key sense this is true: God made the world and everything in it for His purpose, and gave it its order so that His purpose ultimately will be achieved. Alpha to Omega; First to Final Cause.
But if God is responsible for everything, then He can be blamed for all the evil in the world. My late father "blamed God" for World War II to his dying day. Perhaps Nagel "blames God" for the Holocaust. Hence the reasoning might go: since God is the "father of evil," then He cannot be trusted. So just reject Him. The necessity of naturalistic answers then comes to the fore with full force.
But this overlooks the fact (to me it is a fact) that God created man in His image, as possessing reason and free will. The point of entry for evil in this world is to be found in man himself, and only in man — specifically in the man who exercises his free will to deny God and His Logos. God gives man choice, and freedom to act on his choice. If he chooses that which is evil, ought we to blame God for this?
I think not. For if man had no freedom of choice and action, this would mean that God has completely determined every and all aspects of His Creation, including man. And then we really do have a "clockwork universe." To me, this is senseless: because the world that I exist in and observe is simply not that way.
Dear spirited irish, sister in Christ, thank you ever so much for your illuminating essay/post. Outstanding.
We have more than one regular poster at FR who believe God is responsible for evil in the world of humankind. Their reasoning follows the ‘God is all powerful > God allows evil to exist > therefore God is responsible for evil acts by humankind. To hold such a line of reasoning has axiomatic that God exists, that God has lied to humankind, and that God is just as flawed as humankind, but on a more massive scale. Such folks are to be pitied, and they seldom listen to any other line of reasoning because their worldview is so dependent upon the flawed one they cling to as excuse for their own flaws ... they will not acknowledge the reality of sin, not even entertain the possibility that sin is and is an affront to God’s righteousness.
I can agree that organizational and developmental principles are an irreducible part of the natural order. But where did this natural order come from?
And that's what I was talking about: will it ever be possible for us, as products of that natural order, to answer that question? We can choose to believe something and call it an answer, but that's not the same thing.
betty: One statement of his that I found particularly troubling was his attribution to all “theists” (he never says “Christians,” but this is likely who he is talking about) of the belief that “God is responsible for everything.”
Spirit: I believe you hit a bullseye when you argued that Nagel is avoiding the question of origins...and all that follows thereon: the devil, fall, sin, hell, man’s desperate need for a Savior.
It may well be that Nagel knows very well that he is playing Russian Roulette, meaning that underlying his sophisticated equivocations is dread that he may be ‘dead’ wrong about God. And if he is wrong, then he’ll be forever “cast out” by the Lord Who sees into and knows our most secret thoughts and intentions:
“And thou my son Solomon, know the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart, and a willing mind: “for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and under- standeth all the thoughts of minds. If thou seek him, thou shalt find him: but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.
1 Chron. 28:9
Everything that has been thought, said and done will be revealed. There is nothing “covered that shall not be revealed; nor hidden that shall not be known” (Luke 12:2) and just as it is “...appointed unto men once to die, and after this the judgment” (Heb. 9:27) so there will be eternal life in Paradise for those who love God and have kept His commandments but for those whose “hardness and impenitent heart has treasured up wrath against the day of the righteous judgment of God...for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” (Rom. 2:5)
News flash to Nagel: It is those who put God first (the meek), that shall inherit the Earth.
God gives man choice, and freedom to act on his choice. If he chooses that which is evil, ought we to blame God for this?
True.. no gun has ever killed a person or animal.. people do that..
No knife has ever cut anything.. no bludgeon has ever attacked a victim.. no poison has ever poisoned anybody..
No pool of water has ever drowned anyone.. no bomb has ever blown anyone up.. No rope has ever hanged anybody.. People do it for one reason or another.. People make choices..
But governments do because governments are not inanimate they are PEOPLE.... police and military do because they are people.. all manner of malafactors do because they are people..
GOD has little or nothing to do with it..
Evil comes from people in one form or another..
Even (most) disease is basically caused by wrong choices..
I saw the devil in the mirror this morning while I was shaving..
You might have noticed the rascal today as well.. sneaking around your house..