Posted on 01/29/2021 7:38:15 AM PST by daniel1212
Dennis Weidner,
There is no doubt that it is was the Red Army that tore the heart out of the German Army. Vladimir accurately quotes PM Churchill on this. President Roosevelt said basically the same thing. And there is no Western historian of any importance who disagrees. Only people who get their history from Hollywood disagree. Unfortunately this seems to be the case of many Russians who have in their head that Americans question the importance of the Red Army. It simply is not true.
Several points need to be made in connection with this topic.
First the Soviet Union was not an Allied power. It was a co-belligerent. In fact for nearly the first two years of the War, the Soviets were allied with the NAZIS, both launching the War by invading Poland.. The Soviets conducted terrible atrocities in Poland and the other countries they invaded (1939–41). The Soviet NKVD behaved much like the NAZI SS. And the Soviets supported the NAZI war machine by shipping vast quantities of oil, strategic metals, and grain to NAZI Germany.
The Soviets were not only a NAZI ally, the two totalitarian giants JOINTLY invaded and partitioned Europe between themselves. They then BOTH committed terrible atrocities and bickered over the boundaries (1939–41). In addition, Stalin actually wanted to join the Axis. Only Hitler’s objections prevented this.
It is true that the Red Army had to fight the Germans virtually alone for nearly 2 years on the Eastern Front. But part of the reason for this was that the Soviets aid the Germans by the huge deliveries of material to defeat the French and drive Britain from the Continent. Having to fight alone was the Soviets own doing.
Now while it is certainly true that it was the Red Army that tore the heart out of the German Army, it is also true that the Western Allies played an important role in the defeat of NAZI Germany. Here it is important to note that it is not Americans denying the importance of the Red Army, it is Russians who deny the importance of the Western Allies.
In that connection, here is a partial list of what the Western Allies did:
1. American diplomacy so infuriated the Japanese and threatened their main interest (China) that they shifted their military plans from a Strike North to a Strike South strategy. Of course the battles with the Red Army (July 1939) were also a factor.) World War II Japan road to World War II
2. The RAF severely damaged the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain. The Luftwaffe was weaker in 1941 than when it played a key role in the German Western Offensive (1940). As a result the Wehrmacht had less air support than it had in the West. This is often ignored in Barbarossa assessments. Without the Battle of Britain, Hitler would have had an air force twice as large as he had in 1940. World War II air campaign -- Battle of Britain
3. British activity in the Mediterranean resulted in Hitler's Balkan adventure, delaying Barbarossa. The delay made a huge difference. If the Wehrmacht had had only a few more weeks of good weather, they may well have succeeded in destroying the Red Army. World War II Axis invasion of the Balkans
4. Another reason that Barbarossa failed is that Stalin was able to move sizable Siberian forces west and mount an offensive before Moscow (December 1941). The reason he was able to do this is American pressure on Japan forced them together end their war in China or attack the United states. They chose war with America. World War II Pacific naval campaigns -- Pearl Harbor
5. Although the Western Allies were not on the Continent in 1941, Britain being in the war, forced the Germans to maintain a substantial force in France. The Germany could not throw their full weight against the Soviets. World War II German occupation of France
6. American Lend Lease had an enormous impact on the Soviet war effort. Perhaps the most important was American trucks. Without the mobility provided by the trucks, the great Soviet victories of 1943-44 would not have been possible. And the without Lend Lease food, many Soviets would have starved. The Soviets may have prevailed without American help, but it would have taken them longer and it would have been at far greater cost. World War II campaigns -- Arsenal of Democracy Lend Lease countries Soviet Union
7. The Allied strategic bombing campaign had a massive impact on the German war economy. Without the air campaign, the Red Army would have faced better equipped German and other Axis troops. In addition, the Luftwaffe had to be pulled back to protect German cities. and huge numbers of artillery pieces had to be pointed up around German cities rather than deployed in the East. The quantity of ammunition not available in the East was massive. Second World War II Allied strategic bombing campaign
8. While the Heer was broken in the East. The Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine were both broken in the West. In terms of manpower, the German losses were highest in the East. But i terms of industrial production, a very substantial part of the NAZI war economy was devoted to the Luftwaffe and Keiegsmarine (especially efforts to build improved U-boats in 1944 1nd 45). And the effort to build secret weapons like the V-weapons was primarily aimed at the West. While German manpower was primarily committed to the East, the German war economy was not committed to the East to the same degree. World War II naval campaigns -- the Atlantic phase 2
9. German soldiers were primarily deployed in the East, but it is important to note that German industry, science, and technology was not comparably oriented. The fact that Britain remained in the War caused the Germans to significantly increase priorities to the Navy, especially U-boats. This diverted huge quantities of steel from tank and artillery production. The air war was even more important. Not only did the Strategic Bombing Campaign force the Germans to deploy much of their artillery and ammunition around German cities, but aircraft production was a sizeable component of German industry. Running the numerous, about half if German industry, perhaps more than, half was supporting the war in the West, not the War in the East. Germany World War II -- German industry
10. The British at first and then aided by America blockaded German/Axis ports. This meant the Germans were unable to import needed raw materials except from Sweden and a few other neutrals bordering on NAZI controlled territory. World War II -- economics raw materials food metals
11. While Hitler was able to deploy most of his land forces in the East. This changed after Alamein and Torch. Thus in 1943-45, he was forced to deploy substantial forces in the West, relieving pressure in the Red Army. World War II Western Desert : Afrika Koprs
12. The Western Allies passed on insights gained through Ultra to the Soviets. The Soviets passed on nothing learned from their intelligence efforts to the Allies. World War II -- cracking the German Enigma code systems Ultra
13. Japan was unable to threaten the Soviets from the east even after failing to aid Barbarossa. After Midway, the Japanese were so heavily engaged by America that they no longer had the strength to attack the Soviet Union. https://www.histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/sea/pac/ncp-mid.html
14. The American Arsenal of Democracy overpowered the Axis. America had the largest economy in the world and after Pearl Harbor it was mobilized for war. And the Axis economies could simply not keep match it. World War II campaigns -- arsenal of democracy
15. Financing war is an often overlooked topic, in part because it does not interest military historians. An here again America led the way. No country in history had ever spent so much money on a war. And no country had ever ended a war with such a massive debt. World War II -- United States financing the war borrowing
Related: How ridiculous was American production in World War 2? [images at link]
That said, due to its spiritual ad moral declension and thus the choices made at the voting booth, America today could not fight a protracted WW2 on its terms today due to decline in character and industrial might, and while the enemies of God work to destroy America from within then China stands without.
All sorts of mitigating factors “won the war” for the allies. I think the biggest one is Hitler’s incompetence as a CIC.
Cannot be over-stressed!
In the framework of Lend/Lease, America sent more motor vehicles to the U.S.S.R. that the total number that were on the road in the U.K. at that time.
Regards,
The Soviet Union was perfectly happy to supply Hitler’s War Machine while he was invading France and bombing Britain.
Left off the rest of the COMMUNIST propaganda of the great RED Army.... that Roosevelt tricked the GREAT Comrade Stalin into wasting 20 million Red Army soldiers to say the US having to die.
That IS definitely a major part of the “story” concocted about the battle between TWO incompetent socialists (Stalin vs. Hitler) intervened and manipulated by the nascent totalitarian socialist (complete with his bullcrap “2nd” Bill of Rights) F.D.R. (his entire cabinet a NEST of Stalins spies, and continuing through the idiot Truman’s clothing store).
“All sorts of mitigating factors “won the war” for the allies. I think the biggest one is Hitler’s incompetence as a CIC.”
I always thought that if Hitler wasn’t crazy, Germany could have won that war. I also thought that if Hitler wasn’t crazy, he wouldn’t have tried.
You’re right, lots of factors. The Russians played a much bigger role than what I was taught in school, but I think England saved western civilization. If England had buckled, America wouldn’t have had a staging area close to Europe, and Hitler could have pivoted back to Russia without worrying about his western front.
Stalin wanted 20 million dead to give him a bargaining chip.
They lost 100,000 alone in taking Berlin. The Western Allies could have waltzed to Berlin taking a fraction of the casualties.
Not crazy. Evil.
Many Russians and Ukrainians originally welcomed the Germans as “liberators”. If Hitler treated the Russian occupation more in line with the occupation of France, I think many Russians would not have fought.
“Not crazy. Evil.”
Both.
Japans strike south focus is interesting, and likely deliberate on the part of FDR to draw Japan and US into a war (which we know he wanted). By getting Japan to focus on the pacific, Stalin was free to shift the Siberian divisions to the defense of Moscow, and they arrived in the barest nick of time to save the city.
*** Many Russians and Ukrainians originally welcomed the Germans as “liberators”. ***
Interesting. I didn’t know that.
Just to use one example: When the Nazi’s took the Ukraine, they were seen as liberators. Ukraine could have been a critical ally against the USSR. But Hitler created an enemy instead, rounding up the jews for extermination and treating them as “conquered”.
And, at the end of the day, the russian front was really just hitler biting off more than he could chew. If he had simply focused on Western Europe, and waited for his people to produce the atomic bomb, the Us never would have entered the war and we’d have a very different world today.
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“The German Army in fighting Russia is like an elephant attacking a host of ants. The elephant will kill thousands, perhaps even millions, of ants, but in the end their numbers will overcome him, and he will be eaten to the bone.”
-Colonel Bernd Von Kleist
If Hitler had committed the Russian forces to fighting the Allies, we would have had a completely different war. He could have won as we barely did.
> The Russians played a much bigger role than what I was taught in school, but I think England saved western civilization. <
Agreed. And as to your first point, something like 70% of the German army was deployed in the east. Had even half of them been in France on D-Day the invasion very well could have failed.
Red storm on the reich KU History book says:
70% percent of all combat deaths on the Eastern Front
80% of material loss on Eastern Front
75% of civilian deaths on Eastern Front
If it werent for 10 years of Japanese atrocities in China, the above numbers would be nearer to 90%. WWII could have actually been called the Great Russian and German War had the US not been involved.
His focus was always on the East. He attacked East. He did not attack West until Britain had already declared war on Germany.
The Western Allies could have waltzed to Berlin taking a fraction of the casualties.
True because the germans had to fight the Soviets to the death because the alternative was a one way ticket to the Gulag in Siberia. Surrender to the US or Brits meant a hot meal warm cloths and quick repatriation to there families after the war.
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