Bush's gay-marriage tack risks clash with his base (and a poll)

usa today ^ | 12/17/03

[knak]

WASHINGTON

[knak]

Have you read this one? Great article with gobs of references.

Myth and Reality about Homosexuality--Sexual Orientation Section, Guide to Family Issues

[breakem]

Take notes. I pinged you so I don’t get asked the same questions and have to deal with the same BS every thread.

THE AGENDA. lj thinks I support the homosexual agenda. In fact I have explained my position twice. I don’t deal with so-called agenda’s. I deal with issues on an issue by issue basis. I come to threads about gays in the military or marriage because these are issues I believe where the government should treat all citizens the same. The thread usually goes like this. Someone supports a homosexual serving in the military and one of you comes along and posts the agenda and calls the person an apologist, gaystopo member or some such propaganda label.

The problem is you are incapable of dealing with issues separately because you have dedicated yourself to fighting the agenda. So anything a homosexual wants or believes they have a right to you rail against it because it supports the agenda. You equate pedophilia with a person have sex with another adult or wanting to marry them. Because in your mind any gain or recognition of full citizenship for a homosexual is a loss to the agenda.

The agenda was developed by self-ordained leaders and extremists. I don’t have to say it, because I know some homosexuals who say the same thing. You are slamming an entire group, millions of people, because of an agenda some extremists push. In the US we believe in individual rights and responsibilities. Not excoriating people because someone like them is extreme.

Last time I looked, blacks commit an inordinate amount of murder per capita. Now we can yell all day about how violent blacks are or we can treat them as individuals so that the guy down the street can live peacefully and not have to worry about you shouting murderer when he leaves the house.

RESEARCH. You pride yourselves in your links to various studies and research. S says I can’t refute it with evidence. I mentioned a quote that lj used and the 73% child molester study you guys link to. I have asked questions about each. If you can’t answer questions about the study or the quote then it doesn’t stand up. You’re just using numbers because you can throw them on these threads and superficial people will adopt them. You are being intellectually dishonest.

In order for research to be useful it has to be reliable and valid. Reliability means that the results have been repeated in subsequent trials, preferably by other independent sources. Validity means it was executed with proper formalities, supported by objective truth, and has the power to overcome doubt. The ones I’ve seen so far do not meet either of these standards and your inability to answer simple questions does not invite the questioner to read more studies.

Let’s say that 73% of homosexuals are child molesters. That means there 4 million kids more or less who have been molested with no convictions. If this is true there is a pandemic of crime that is unaddressed. Why haven’t police groups or DAs spoken out on this most serious issue?

The obvious reason is that it’s not true. It is on its face incredible and raises doubt about the research or the researcher. When I took my masters research class, the instructor cautioned that if your results don’t seem credible, your first reaction is to question yourself, not go outside yelling the findings to everyone.

Lastly, when you see research funded by some group like American Family Values for Exiling homosexuals on the north slope of Alaska, it is easy to dismiss the research as starting from a bias point.

I have in the past posted critical analyses of various research showing the evils of homosexuality, but the owner deleted the posts. So you have the free run of the place, but don’t expect all freepers to go along and not point out what you are doing. Many have just stopped posting because they were called names, others stopped because they don’t have the patience to withstand constant barrages of propaganda, and others see these threads as a place to keep all the zealots corralled and make the other threads safe for dialogue. I choose, for now, to keep pointing out what you are doing. I know that people come here to read and learn about conservatism and I care what they see and take away about the FR. But I cannot keep up the pace of those more fanatical amongst you. So you can call it clock cleaning or whatever, but I have a short time period for staying with you.

[breakem]

102's for you too.

[John O]

I debunked the research that said 73% of homosexuals are child molestors onb another thread. scripter knows that, in fact I thought you were on that thread

I was on that thread. Putting your fingers in your ears and shouting "NO IT ISN'T, NO IT ISN'T" doesn't equate to debunking

[DLfromthedesert]

People are free to live as they wish. But when they start pushing for radical ideas like homosexual marriage sanctioned by the state, teaching homosexual practices in elementary schools, and getting in everyone's face with their silly parades and wanting to prance in their feathers in other people's parades, that's when people say, "Shut up and get out of our faces with your perverted lifestyles"

[John O]

Both of you have been on too many threads to ask such a stupid question. The government licenses marriage, but tells homosexuals they cannot decide whom they will marry.

Until a recent supreme court decision homosexuals could be put in jail for having sex with each other. You can't argue that they have equal rights and then support sodomy laws. How many people have pointed this out to you?

It is right and proper for the people to decide through their government that some behaviors are not to be tolerated. Murder is illegal and always will be. Homosexual behavior should also be illegal (and will eventually be returned to that status)

Those who currently practice homosexual behavior have the exact same righ to marry that I do. They can marry anyone of the opposite sex that will have them

[breakem]

free to live as they wish as long as they don't ask for similar consideration of governmental issued licenses. LOL! Freedom indeed!

[biblewonk]

The thing that really chapps me, well one of them, is that the liberals get their way. They want me to be very mad about this issue, which I am, and they want my anger focused at W, which it is. I'm playing into their hands as I think of voting for Walter Williams for president. I will only do that when I am convinced it is a lose lose situation between the dems and the Republicans. The jury's still on that one.

[DLfromthedesert]

The conservative gays I know are able to take care of their own affairs without the intervention of the government, and they don't want the government to be involved in their relationship.

Why should we change our laws to accommodate the few who are leftist activists?

[breakem]

"Homosexual behavior should also be illegal (and will eventually be returned to that status)"

You've just made the definitive statement of your position. What else needs to be said. I had hoped you might be part of a dialogue which would influence how you cite research and speak of homosexuals, but I can see you are blinded.

Thank you for your honesty. It is important that other know your true motivation.

To the others: BEHOLD YOUR RUNNING MATE!

[breakem]

I don't think laws are for leftists and conservatives they're for everybody.

I usually preface my comments on marriage by saying government should get out of the business, however since they're in then it should be open to all taxpayers.

[Ahban]

my arrogance? You are the one who took it upon herself to start issuing "grades" to other freepers. Who made you the teacher? When called on it, you start name dropping, or at least position dropping. Yeah, you are in tight with folks close to the President so you are in a better position to judge things than the rest of us are. Right! So I am the one who is arrogant?

You don't lack for nerve, I'll give you that much.

[newgeezer]

Yep. The libs put Dubya -- all right-of-center-pols, for that matter -- in a precarious, seemingly no-win situation. He can either take a stand, and let the chips fall where they may (e.g. failed re-election), or he can remain silent on the issue (ditto).

It makes me think of what it must've been like to be a politician during the suffrage movement. How many self-serving, career politicians would dare take a chance of alienating as much as half their (potential) constituents? (Answer: Zero. So, here we are.)

[DLfromthedesert]

OK; so you're a libertine; you think differently from conservatives who believe culture is also important to preserve a cohesive society.

[breakem]

I'm a Libertine? I looked around the whole house and now my entire family is laughing at you. Thanx anyway.

I hate changes that provide more people access to governmental licensing and rights. Don't you. Let's go back to the good old days, no votes for women and get the slaves back in the fields. Cohesive society indeed.

[knak]

Here's more than one study for you. I thought I'd give you a few since you are mad because everyone keeps bringing up one study.

43. A study of 425 homosexual males, ages 17 to 22, reported that 41.4% reported an occasion of forced sex. Seventy-nine of the boys reported beginning anal sex with men when they were ages 3 to 14. Of these, 15.2% were already HIV-positive. (Lemp, G., Hirozawa, A., Givertz, D., Nieri, G., Anderson, L., Linegren, M., Janssen, R., Katx, M. (1994) Seroprevalence of HIV and Risk Behaviors Among Young Homosexual and Bisexual Men. Journal of the American Medical Association. 272, 6: 449:454.)

44. "29% of the adult children of homosexual parents had been specifically subjected to sexual molestation by that homosexual parent, compared to only 0.6% of adult children of heterosexual parents. Having a homosexual parent(s) appears to increase the risk of incest with a parent by a factor of about 50." (P. Cameron and K. Cameron, "Homosexual Parents," Adolescence 31 (1996): 772)

45. "Individuals from 1% to 3% of the population that are sexually attracted to the same sex are committing up to one-third of the sex crimes against children." (Timothy J. Dailey, Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse, http://www.frc.org/get/is02e3.cfm)

46. Researchers Karla Jay and Allen Young report data showing that 73% of homosexuals surveyed had at some time had sex with boys 16-19 years of age or younger. (Karla Jay and Allen Young, The Gay Report: Lesbians and Gay Men Speak Out about Sexual Experiences and Lifestyles (New York: Summit Books, 1979), p. 275)

47. While many homosexuals do not seek out young sexual partners, evidence indicates that disproportionate numbers of homosexual men seek adolescent males or boys as sexual partners. (Zebulon A. Silverthorne & Vernon L. Quinsey, "Sexual Partner Age Preferences of Homosexual and Heterosexual Men and Women," p. 73)

48. "Incest was more common among bisexuals and homosexuals of both sexes" than among heterosexuals. While less than 0.8% of heterosexual males reported have had sex with a brother, 12% of homosexuals reported having had sex with at least one brother. (Study of more than 9,100 adults in U.S. metropolitan areas) (Paul Cameron, and Kirk Cameron "Does Incest Cause Homosexuality?" Psychological Reports. Vol. 76, Number . , 1995. Page(s) 611-621)

49. A study of male child sex offenders found that 14% targeted only males, and 28% chose males as well as females as victims, thus indicating that 42% of male pedophiles engaged in homosexual molestation. (Michele Elliott, "Child Sexual Abuse Prevention: What Offenders Tell Us," Child Abuse and Neglect 19 (1995): 581)

50. A study in Archives of Sexual Behavior found that homosexual men are attracted to young males. The study compared the sexual age preferences of heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men, and lesbians. The results showed that, in marked contrast to the other three categories, "all but 9 of the 48 homosexual men preferred the youngest two male age categories," which included males as young as age 15. (Zebulon A. Silverthorne & Vernon L. Quinsey, "Sexual Partner Age Preferences of Homosexual and Heterosexual Men and Women," p. 73)

51. A study of 229 convicted child molesters found that "86% of offenders against males described themselves as homosexual or bisexual." ( W. D. Erickson, "Behavior Patterns of Child Molesters," Archives of Sexual Behavior 17 (1988): 83)

52. In a 1999 Journal of Homosexuality, author Helmut Graupner claims: "Man/boy and woman/girl relations without doubt are same-sex relations and they do constitute an aspect of gay and lesbian life." Graupner argues that, as such, consensual sexual relations between adult homosexuals and youths as young as fourteen qualifies as a "gay rights issue." (Helmut Graupner, "Love Versus Abuse: Crossgenerational Sexual Relations of Minors: A Gay Rights Issue?" Journal of Homosexuality 37 (1999): 23, 26)

[breakem]

You mischaracterized my position. I never complained that everyone brought up one study. Sorry you wasted your time.

[knak]

73% child molester study you guys link to

I guess I misunderstood that line then?

[scripter]

Have you read this one?

Thanks. Yes, I saw that massive piece and already have revision 1.2 of the categorical index updated with that article.

[scripter]

Take notes.

Thanks, but I only take notes from credible sources.

I deal with issues on an issue by issue basis.

Hey, we have something in common. What you seemed to have missed, though, is the issues all have a common theme: homosexuality. And those of us who have dealt with the issues have decided to work smarter and gather all the information we can to make informed, educated and intelligent statements on the issues.

Someone supports a homosexual serving in the military and one of you comes along and posts the agenda and calls the person an apologist, gaystopo member or some such propaganda label.

Perhaps you should stop looking like a duck.

What you never comment on is the health hazards of the homosexual lifestyle. AIDS targets homosexual behavior, tainting the blood supply with a deadly contagious virus. Knowing this, and on this issue alone, why you think homosexuals should serve in the military is baffling.