Battle Rifle Advice Wanted

self ^ | Tuesday, November 9 | self

[Mulder]

I'm looking to purchase a battle rifle next year in .308, and can't decide what I want to get.

I love the AR-15 rifles in 5.56mm, but have heard some bad things about reliability of the AR-10s. Also, the recoil is apparently more from this rifle than the other 308 semi-autos. But the AR-10 does have the advantage of having the same manual of arms as an AR-15.

Another consideration is the Springfield M1A Scout. The M1A was ranked #1 by Boston T. Party in his "Gun Bible", and has a lot going for it.

Finally, there is the FN-FAL. I don't know too much about this rifle, but a lot of folks seem to like it.

I want to mount either an Aimpoint or 4X ACOG to it, and setup it up as something I can use out to 300 yards or so. Of course, since it's .308 and can really reach out there, I want something accurate enough so that if I decide I want a semi-auto precision rifle, I can just put a Leupold scope on her, and be set.

Also, I really like the pistol grip and collapsible stocks on the AR-15s, and would prefer that furniture on my battle rifle as well. I *think* someone makes them for M1A, but aren't certain. So that is another consideration.

Thanks in advance!

[x1stcav]

Mad, MOG is some sort of Fantasy site?

[Ranxerox]

Well I'll chime in for the AR-.308 variant. I own a Bushmaster .308 and I like it as much as my AR-15. Don't worry about the recoil, my Bushmaster's recoil is very light and I believe any AR-style .308 will be similar due to the buffer in the stock.

Very accurate rifle, even in the carbine setup. Not as many add-ons as the AR-15, but that will probable change as the industry ramps up.

As far as reliability goes, stick with the name brands (Bushmaster, Armalite, DPMS) and you should be okay. If you do have problems, Armalite, for instance, has a lifetime warranty and they have no qualms about honoring it. Bushmaster also has a great customer service department.

Another plus for the Bushmaster is that it uses FN-Fal mags, which are readily available and cheap ($8.00 new for 20 rnd).

[Nachoman]

Let me toss some gas on this fire. The FN FAL will vary wildly in quality, depending on country of origin and rifle builder. As another poster said, DSA is probably your best route. Work with them directly to save money. You can probably expect 2-3 MOA performance out of the box with a DSA rifle.

If you want better accuracy than that, go with a Springfield M1A1 (M14). It will cost you 2-3 times as much, and mags are around $50, as opposed to $5 for a FAL. Have fun shopping!

[steplock]

M-14 w/glass embedded stock and match sights -- extremely accurate without a scope to 1000 yards!

[Cloud William]

If at all possible, try before you buy. If there's a gun club or rirfle range near you, go solicit the opinions of the folks who own 'em. Bring a supply of 7.26x51 ammo with you and you'll probably get to shoot all you care to.

The reason that I recommend doing this is that although the "big three" are similar in configuration, each has a unique "feel". Some people love the FAL, but think the H&K has lousy ergonomics and harsh recoil. For others, the H&K fits just right, so the FAL feels awkward. Some who love the M-14/M-1A can't stand the pistol-grip setup on the other two.

If you should find that you like the FAL series of rifles best, consider buying an Austrian StG-58 parts kit and an Imbel semi-auto "gear logo" receiver. There are a bunch of good FAL-smiths out there who can assemble it for not too much $$$, and those people at Steyr-Daimler-Puch could really forge a rifle barrel. Naturally, the Austrian army didn't see much action while the StG-58 was issued, so all those parts are as-new.

Good luck with your decision. Let us know what you choose.

[Atlas Sneezed]

Don't take anyone's advice.

Read the $28 book that spends hundreds of pages with useful data and analysis on precisely this very question.

http://javelinpress.com/bostons_gun_bible.html

If you don't think the book is worthwhile, I'll buy your copy.

Trust me.

(It likes the M1A, but explains why, and explains why you might like others.)

[Uncle Jaque]

For a pretty comprehensive discussion of the comparative merits of the major Battle Rifles currently available on the Civilian market, Check out:

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=12

Feel free to register and post your question over there as well.

I have been rather partial to the old M-14 ever since I trained with one and carried one in Korea in 1968.
Never had much use for the "Jammin' Jenny" 5.56MM, but I guess they are better now than they were then and a lot of Soldiers seem to like 'em. I just have to think that when it comes to whomping an enemy down so he won't be getting right back up again a couple of hundred yards away, you just cant' do a 7.62 X 51MM's job with a puny little "Made by Mattell - I'ts Swell" plastic and aluminum .222 gopher gun.

But prices being as they are for the CivviLegal M-1A, I might be tempted by one of the CETMEs or G-3 varients.
They can be had for around $300 these days, and good luck finding an M-1A for that!

We are told that IF they are assembled on a US made semi-auto reciever and set up properly, they are accurate and reliable.


As far as I can tell, between the FN/FAL and CETME, it's pretty much Fords and Chevys.

These rifles have entirely different operating systems, BTW;
The FAL is a gas-op piston gun, while the CETME uses a very interesting delayed blow-back system.

For even more on the CETME, go to:

http://www.cetmerifles.com/pages/index2.html

But the buzz is that CETMEs are drying up, so we might not want to put one off too long.

I'm contemplating buying the "Parts Kit" and a reciever, and building one up.

Have fun!

UJ

[punster]

The AR-10 clones in .308 (7.62x51) can be extremely accurate. Example: The Knight SR-25 1/4 inch groups at 100 yards are claimed.

The same applies to the AR-15 clones in 5.56x45 (.223 Rem).

The biggest problem with the AR-10 and AR-15 is fouling of the gas tube. This was due to ammunition containing powder with a high calcium carbonate content. The calcium carbonate would build up in the gas tube, blocking it. It is not as much problem at present, because of improvements in powder technology. Use ammunition with ball powder.

Any firearm must be kept clean, for maximum reliability. I believe the Ar-10 and AR-15 clones are very easy to clean, since they break open at the breach, so the bolt carrier can be removed and a cleaning rod inserted from the chamber end of the barrel.

[the_gospel_of_thomas]

good question, Interesting reading.

I agree with the other poster who recommended the
book "Boston's Gun Bible." Always good to take the
time to research it on your own after you get the
anecdotal stories here.

and - don't forget to add the ( Vanity ) to the title
of the post next time.

[Blood of Tyrants]

First, do you want a target rifle or a battle rifle? If you want a target rifle, get an M1A or AR-10 clone. If you want a reliable, proven battle rifle get an FAL.

Only the US used the M14 while over 90 used the FN-FAL.

The M14 and it's civilian cousin the M1A are outstanding weapons and the FAL won't be able to match their accuracy. However, FAL's are EXTREMELY reliable.You can even screw one together from a kit in your garage, I have assembled 3 myself.

Spare parts, aftermarket parts, and mags are cheap and readily available. This means that you can do a bit of home gunsmithing without fear of destroying something really expensive. As someone said, go over to the FalFiles.com for all the info you could ever want about the FAL.

If you don't want to build one, just get a DS Arms built FAL and you will be tickled pink.

Then there is always the Garand rebarreled to .308. You can pick up a Greek Rack Grade for $295, have it professionally refinished and rebarreled and restocked and STILL have less then $800 invested. Also, with just a little practice, you can shoot just as many rounds from a Garand as any other mag fed semi-auto battle rifle.

[april15Bendovr]

I would go for the Bushmaster M17S

[Blood of Tyrants]

P.S. I just picked up 4 used 20 round aluminum FAL mags in very good condition at a gunshow for $5 each.

[Physicist]

Self-ping.

[mad_as_he$$]

Blackhawk Down, Sorry To used to talking in code. Shugart and his partner ( Gary Gordon)died protecting Michael Durant when Super 64 went down. Their families were given THE Medal by Scumbag Clinton. If you don't know the story I recommend "Blackhawk Down" by Mark Bowden and the movie which has a slightly different slant on the story.

[hubno]

It seems that in the past 78 years I have fired them all.H K 91 & FN-FAL are jewels but so is the M1A1,M-14 some AR-15 & 10's will do in a crunch.
Anyway,it depends on how you define "battle".
There really isn't a battle rifle.
In WW 1 Sgt,York killed 32 Germans & captured 136 up close & personal with a Sprigfield 1903 5 shot bolt action 30.06 rifle.

Me,I'll stick with my M-1 in .06 and .45 1911 A-1 Colt.
I have a 1938 Swedish Mauser in 6.5 for talking long distance.
And my grand paps trusty Winchester M-97 12 guage pump with double ought buck.

[Chode]

yup... HK91-A3 with collapsing stock... mine was made in 1978 and still runs like a clock!!!

got one with wood stock & forend too... love em both.

[Blood of Tyrants]

IIRC, Sgt. Alvin York carried an M1917, not an M1903.

[Blood of Tyrants]

P.P.S. You cna get a folding stock for a FAL and install it legally, now. Do that with an AR-10 or M1A.

[Chode]

[Hat-Trick]

I liked the book better than the movie - more direct quotes and relation of what happend from the Patriots who were actually there. Shugart and Gordon are true heros, and I fully understand Shugart's father allegedly not shaking x-42's hand when receiving the CMH. Those men should have had the AC130 Spectre flying shotgun above them.