On second day, evolution trial [Dover, PA] delves into topic of faith

The Intelligencer (PA) via phillyBurbs ^ | 27 September 2005 | MARTHA RAFFAELE

[PatrickHenry]

Some information from The List-O-Links:

The Flagellum Unspun: The Collapse of "Irreducible Complexity," Kenneth R. Miller. Critique of Behe.
Behe's "irreducible complexity" argument is fatally flawed. Ichneumon's post 35.
Inferior Design. Revealing info on ID and the Discovery Institute.
Neither intelligent nor designed. No evidence of wise, omniscient design.
Irreducible Complexity Demystified. Major debunking of ID.

[PatrickHenry]

EvolutionPing

A pro-evolution science list with over 300 names. See the list's explanation at my freeper homepage. Then FReepmail to be added or dropped. See what's new in The List-O-Links.

[JeeperFreeper]

Interesting. As I recollect, a number of years ago there was a symposium of biologists and mathemeticians hosted by the Wistar Institute. There the mathematicians gave the odds on evolution occuring as simply mind boggling small. Maybe some FReeper has a better memory than me to flesh out that.

[Right Wing Professor]

Thanks, PatrickHenry, for the update on these Michael Newdow wanna-be's

Interesting that you characterize a devout Roman Catholic like Miller as an atheist wannabe. It's a shame the anti-Catholicism that historically characterized some extreme Protestant sects seems to be alive and well here on FR.

[jwalsh07]

The only federal issue here is whether or not the Dover School Board has violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment. They obviously have not. End of case. back to the evo-crevo debate.

[Junior]

Crevo threads for the past week:

2005-09-27 Biology expert testifies. Professor: Intelligent design is creationism.
2005-09-27 On second day, evolution trial [Dover, PA] delves into topic of faith
2005-09-27 Trial Over 'Intelligent Design' Resumes
2005-09-26 Creationism, Christianity, and Common Sense
2005-09-26 Creationism, Intelligent Design, and Evolution
2005-09-26 Dispute over evolution goes on trial in U.S. court
2005-09-26 Does Genesis hold up under critic’s scrutiny? (Creation/Evolution)
2005-09-26 New Analyses Bolster Central Tenets of Evolution Theory
2005-09-26 The Problem With Evolution
2005-09-26 With world watching, trial starts
2005-09-25 In Evolution Debate, Creationists Are Breaking New Ground
2005-09-24 The trouble with Darwin (Bush's I.D. comments changed Australia's Educational Landscape)
2005-09-23 Ultimate thread on Dover, Pennsylvania's Evolution v. Intelligent Design trial
2005-09-22 Court Case Threatens to 'Drag Science into the Supernatural'
2005-09-22 Evan Jamieson, hydrometallurgy (Creation/Evolution)
2005-09-22 Insight into our sight: A new view on the evolution of the eye lens (Desperate conjuncture)
2005-09-22 Intelligent Design: An Ambiguous Assault on Evolution
2005-09-22 Intelligent designers down on Dover
2005-09-22 Intelligible Design
2005-09-21 Intelligent design? Not on this campus [Pennsylvania]
2005-09-21 Researchers create functioning artificial proteins using nature's rules

Crevo Warrior Freepdays for the month of September:

2005-09-17 Arnhart
2001-09-06 atlaw
2004-09-22 coffee260
2004-09-15 Diana in Wisconsin
2001-09-17 Dimensio
2003-09-25 gobucks
2001-09-14 Heartlander
2004-09-21 JamesP81
2004-09-13 johnnyb_61820
2004-09-09 LouAvul
2004-09-16 ml1954
2003-09-14 neverdem
2003-09-09 RightWingAtheist
1998-09-17 tallhappy
2003-09-25 truthfinder9
1999-09-23 Tumbleweed_Connection

In Memoriam. Fallen Crevo Warriors:

ALS
Aric2000
bluepistolero
ConservababeJen
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f.Christian
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JesseShurun
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metacognative
Modernman
peg the prophet
RickyJ
SeaLion
Tomax
tpaine

Bring back SeaLion and Mondernman!

[shuckmaster]

There the mathematicians gave the odds on evolution occuring as simply mind boggling small.

Evolution occurs everytime a seed sprouts or an infant is born.

[Dimensio]

There the mathematicians gave the odds on evolution occuring as simply mind boggling small.

I've never seen a probability argument "against" evolution that wasn't founded upon faulty premises.

[js1138]

Got that database up and running?

[Antonello]

The only federal issue here is whether or not the Dover School Board has violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment. They obviously have not. End of case. back to the evo-crevo debate.

The only obvious thing is that ID proponents have no qualms about lying in the name of religion. This lie does not make their claim true; instead it desecrates the very values they pretend to hold dear. How can one practice deception and not be in the thrall of the Great Deceiver?

[Quark2005]

"This case is about free inquiry in education, not about a religious agenda," said Patrick Gillen of the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, Mich., in his opening statement. The center, which lobbies for what it sees as the religious freedom of Christians, is defending the school district.

If this isn't about a religious agenda, why in the world would the Thomas More Law Center have any interest in it? Puzzling.

[Mulch]

1 in 10 ^40,000 = the odds that man evolved through the process of evolution.
1 in 10 ⁵⁰ = statistical improbability

[Elsiejay]

One supposes Miller meant to say, or perhaps actually did say, that faith and science are "complementary," rather than "complimentary."

[Quark2005]

1 in 10^40,000 = odds invented by a hand-waving analysis that man evolved through evolution when in reality, no one really knows the odds (not that you can use those kind of statistics retroactively, anyway)

1 in 2.1 = statistical improbability

[bobdsmith]

1 in 10^40,000 = the odds that your calculation is accurate

1 in 10⁵⁰ = statistical improbability

[Antonello]

One supposes Miller meant to say, or perhaps actually did say, that faith and science are "complementary," rather than "complimentary."

I'm going to guess that Miller didn't spell the word out on the stand, and the grammatical error belongs to the reporter.

[narby]

The only federal issue here is whether or not the Dover School Board has violated the establishment clause of the First Amendment. They obviously have not.

Violating the Establishment clause is the only issue here. But only one day into a 5 week trial is a bit soon to come to a verdict.

Members of the school board are on record saying precisely that their motivation *is* to insert religion into public schools. And the textbook they recommended was originally written in support of the explicitly religious "creationism" viewpoint, and the text was changed only to replace the word "creationism" with the words "Intelligent Design".

The Discovery Institute, which is almost solely devoted to the ID issue has bailed out of this one. I'm sure they can see a defeat coming, and don't want to be tainted by it.

You guys are going to lose this one. Badly.

[js1138]

It was written by a journalist, not PH.

Hey, it goes through the spell checker, so what's the problem?

[jennyp]

As I recollect, a number of years ago there was a symposium of biologists and mathemeticians hosted by the Wistar Institute. There the mathematicians gave the odds on evolution occuring as simply mind boggling small.

See this for a good overview analysis of the Wistar claim. (See the whole page for analyses of all the popular "impossible odds" arguments.)