Posted on 07/05/2006 7:03:35 AM PDT by ElRushbo
His pastor today said KL felt "bad" for all those who lost money when Enron folded. Everyone else said he never believed he had done anything wrong, so I don't know if "guilty conscience" applies.
Once again, media today said he had sold all 5 of his Aspen houses back when we all followed the sales. However, the Aspen Valley Hospital said they were called to "his home" in Old Snowmass. I'll have to see if any of the properties allegedly sold were there - I don't think so.
Different sources are giving different figures for what they felt he owed. In the criminal trial, the number $43 million was key, as far as the amount of stock he sold while telling others everything was fine and to buy more. I had heard and seen $75 million for that number.
Others have said today that approximately $180 million was up for grabs in a civil trial. The criminal trial and conviction just "go away" now, with his death. The civil trial could go forward against the estate.
LoL.. even a stopped clock is right twice a day, eh?
I don't immediately know of any impediment to the continuation of civil actions that are already pending. They should be able to proceed against the estate.
However, there are some interesting Fifth Circuit decisions relating to the validity of a criminal conviction if the defendant dies during the course of appellate proceedings.
Under the Fifth Circuit's law of abatement of a criminal conviction when a defendant dies before appellate review of the conviction, "It is well established in this circuit that the death of a criminal defendant pending an appeal of his or her case abates, ab initio, the entire criminal proceeding." United States v. Asset, 990 F.2d 208 (5th Cir. 1993).
And in a recent Fifth Circuit decision, United States v. Estate of Parsons, 367 F.3d 409 (5th Cir. 2004), the court explained that "the appeal does not just disappear, and the case is not merely dismissed. Instead, everything associated with the case is extinguished, leaving the defendant as if he had never been indicted or convicted."
In Parsons, the court vacated a forfeiture order, which means that the government's forfeiture claim against Lay for $43.5 million could be dismissed. The Fifth Circuit explained the rationale for the rule: "The finality principle reasons that the state should not label one as guilty until he has exhausted his opportunity to appeal. The punishment principle asserts that the state should not punish a dead person or his estate."
An interesting question is whether one can still describe Lay as having been convicted of a crime, at least in a technical sense, because the law no longer recognizes there having been any criminal case initiated against him.
If there is no underlying criminal conviction, then the favorable presumptions that would otherwise exist in pending civil actions would be expunged, making such actions harder to prosecute.
Every American invested in a 401k is subject to changes in plan administration and other lockup scenarios as well.
When I point out that they could choose to diversify their investments, people say: "They couldn't diversify - they weren't allowed to sell their shares." But they were allowed to sell their shares.
Then the claim becomes: "Well they couldn't sell their shares for a 60 day administrative change window" - as if this doesn't routinely happen to every 401k investor at some point or other.
My entire argument is based on the fact that these people did nothing for years and years, in some cases decades.
What's the problem: that some guy went for 20 years studiously neglecting his personal finances and all of a sudden has a right to complain because he's locked up while his plan changes administrators?
And that doesn't account for the millions of shares of Enron stock that were held by Enron employees outside of the 401k plans, which were saleable at any time.
at the very moment when we found out that there was trouble in Enron and were able to pull our investments out
The 401k was halted for administrative change sometime on or around October 17, 2001 when the shares were trading about $32.
In the 6 months preceding that date, Enron stock had lost more than half its value. It was even trading as high as $81 in February 2001 - that's right 250% higher earlier that year.
If you were willing to watch two-thirds of your 401k evaporate without doing a darned thing about it, how much did the 60 day lockup actually affect you?
Two-thirds of the savings were gone by lockup time - anyone who was thinking was long gone before the administration change.
You possess astute powers of deduction and a a devotion to the truth. The obscure case of Cliff Baxter was, however, ruled a "suicide" by the powers that be and the case is officially closed. The family is unconvinced and maintains that there was a cover-up.
bump
And you don't find the administrative change-over lockup *convenient* or *coincidental* to the time period when everything was falling apart?
Even his wife, who knew what the note said? I was pretty sure there was something in that which triggered her to believe it. Something only she would recognize.
They are saying heart attack. I don't believe it for a minute. The lying coward committed suicide, I'll bet, probably by some drug. May he rot in hell.
EDIT: More likely the Bush Crime Family shut him up for good before he could 'negotiate' a lighter sentence by telling what he knows about King George.
Hasn't anyone at DU ever heard of Occam's Razor
They're probably still having trouble with Gillete's razor
"Do you happen to know how much money Lay gave to Bush and the Republicans?"
Here's what looks like a pretty full list. Hope it helps.
http://www.newsmeat.com/ceo_political_donations/Ken_Lay.php
Moore is such a posuer POS
He purposely doesnt shave to appear as a blue collar schlub.
Freekin multi million dollar posuer
They *believed* their reinstated CEO when he said everything was fine.
Thanks for your insight. That $43.5M would certainly go along way toward orchestrating any facade that Lay and family might want to foist on the US government or any future civil plaintiffs, for that matter. I note that the family has said that he was to be cremated, which would be the preferred means of concealing the crime once and for all time. IMHO, this death is just way too convenient.
Companies in trouble will do anything they legally can to try to prop up the stock price.
However, it is disingenuous for someone to claim that they never had an opportunity to sell their Enron stock and that they had no idea there was value at risk when:
(1) They were perfectly capable of selling their shares the whole time the stock was falling from $87 to $27 and (2) they were perfectly capable of selling all the shares they owned outside of the 401k plan at any time.
Things were falling apart for a year before October 17, 2001 - and emails show that tons of rank and file Enron employees saw it happening months before the market figured it out - and they still sat on their shares.
The lockup was a last-gasp desperate move, not a sudden first sign that something might not be right.
What responsible person watches two-thirds of their savings evaporate in less than a year and still does nothing?
Should I feel sorry for people who believe that the Abdominizer is going to transform them from a 300 lb couch potato to a triathlete in 21 days?
When the stock drops 66% in less than a year, people need to be grownups and assess for themselves.
OK - lol, didn't consider that as payback! It was just the discount between what he used for his "net worth" in borrowing and buying and what the stock was worth by the time it was supposedly paid back.
Preaching to the choir with me - I never trusted the company at all, when the rest of the world thought it was golden.
Nobody knew it would go to -0- or into the world's largest bankruptcy at the time. Who knew whether Dynegy or someone else might pay a premium for their shares? We only know in hindsight.
Surely there will be an autopsy. Unless Linda doesn't *want* one.
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