Posted on 02/22/2012 3:28:43 PM PST by ROCKLOBSTER
Personal Salvation
LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie declared:
Full salvation is attained by virtue of knowledge, truth, righteousness, and all true principles. Many conditions must exist in order to make such salvation available to men. Without the atonement, the gospel, the priesthood, and the sealing power, there would be no salvation,. Without continuous revelation, the ministering angels, the working of miracles, the prevalence of gifts of the spirit, there would be no salvation. If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” (M.D., p. 670).
Notice that McConkie mentioned at least fifteen things that are essential to individual salvation in the above quote. Pres. Joseph Fielding Smith said, “Individual Salvation,” or “exaltation,” is that which man merits by “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel” (D. of S. Vol I, p. 134). Four of those requirements are mentioned in the fourth Article of Faith (quoted at the beginning of this chapter). But, many other things are required if one expects to achieve godhood in the highest glory of the celestial kingdom. The following are among the requirements for “individual salvation,” beginning with the fourth Article of Faith.
Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
Remember that the Christ of Mormonism is a”literal son” of a Father and Mother God, and is a spirit brother of Lucifer. He became “a god” through eternal progression, and was married and had physical offspring. His atonement provides resurrection for all men and opens the door so men can “work out” their individual salvation. For more information about Christ, see our chapter on God.
Furthermore, LDS do not believe that faith justifies anyone. Apostle Talmage said, “The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil” (A. of F., p. 480). He also calls it a “pernicious doctrine” (Ibid., pp. 107, 480). But, Paul said, “We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law” (Rom. 3:28). He also declared, “Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Rom. 5:1). Paul warned, “But though we or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed” (Gal. 1:8-9).
A number of years ago there was a popular saying that went something like this: “I know you think you understood what you thought I said, but what you heard was not what I meant.” We remember smiling in recognition of the problems we have communicating with one another. For decades Protestants and Catholics have faced a serious problem when talking to their LDS friends about Christianity and the Bible. This was especially brought to our attention recently as we read a speech by Theodore M. Burton, a Mormon General Authority. He recounted a conversation he had with a young stewardess while traveling on a plane to New England:
“She told me that she had recently been converted from her former manner of living and was now ‘saved.’... she was now a ‘born-again Christian.’... She said, ‘...I am now on the path of eternal life.’... she said, ‘I have felt a marvelous spiritual change come over me which has purged all evil from my soul.’... ‘...I’ve had a sanctification experience, not through any work that I or any other person has done for me, but a work of grace whereby Jesus has pardoned my sins and promised me eternal life. I don’t need any formal church organization to accomplish this....’ She added that she had truly been reborn spiritually. From her words, I knew she did not understand what is meant by being ‘born again’ nor what is termed the second birth.” (The Ensign, Sept. 1985, p. 66)
Later in his speech, Elder Burton observed: “When people of the world speak of being ‘saved,’ they refer to being saved from death to rise in the resurrection.” (p. 68) Burton’s comment demonstrates that he did not understand what the young woman was saying. When Christians speak of being ‘born again’ or ‘saved’ they are referring to eternal life, not just resurrection. Mormons divide ‘saved by grace’ and ‘eternal life’ into separate conditions, Christians do not. Bible verses such as 1 John 5:12-13 and John 3:16-17 portray faith in Christ as the necessary act to receive eternal life. When Christians talk about ‘being saved’ or ‘born again’ they understand that to include everlasting life in God’s presence. Mormonism, however, teaches one can be resurrected to a part of heaven — they divide it into three parts — but still not have eternal life! Latter-day Saints believe the only ones enjoying eternal life will be those who have been both baptized into the LDS Church (born again) and married in one of its temples. Spencer W. Kimball, 12th president and prophet of the LDS Church, taught:
“Only through celestial marriage can one find the strait way, the narrow path. Eternal life cannot be had in any other way. The Lord was very specific and very definite in the matter of marriage.” (Deseret News, Nov. 12, 1977, Church Section)
In his speech, Theodore M. Burton maintains salvation by grace is that “which Jesus Christ gives to every person who has lived on the earth, and is independent of the works we do. But to be exalted to eternal life and to be able to live the kind of life that God the Eternal Father lives requires not only the gift of grace that Jesus gives to all mankind through his atonement, but that gift coupled with our own obedience and conformity to all the requirements of righteous living prescribed by the gospel of Jesus Christ. Exaltation, or the eternal life Jesus spoke about, comes from a partnership with Jesus Christ, which begins in the ordinance of baptism, by which we are reborn, and is developed through a lifetime of righteous living.” (The Ensign, Sept. 1985, p. 68-69) Elder Burton also says this on page 68 of the same article: “Thus, through the atonement of Jesus Christ, together with the proper ordinances performed in the proper manner by proper authority and coupled with obedience to the laws and commandments of God, we can be saved from spiritual death and can be exalted to live in the presence of God the Eternal Father.”
Thus we see how differently Mr. Burton and the stewardess were approaching the words “eternal life.” Traditionally, Christians have insisted that God revealed all things necessary for eternal life in the Bible, citing such verses as John 20:30-31: “And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” Mormonism, on the other hand, goes far beyond the Bible to the revelations of Joseph Smith for its final word on doctrine.
The language barrier goes very deep and stems from the fact that Mormons have such a totally different concept of God and humans that it colors all their theological statements. In an official LDS handbook titled, Achieving a Celestial Marriage, Mormonism declares its belief in a God who was once a human on another earth, along with his wife, and that they are now resurrected beings who have achieved Godhood:
“The gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that man is an eternal being, made in the image and likeness of God. It also holds that man is a literal child of God and has the potential, if faithful to divine laws and ordinances, of becoming like his heavenly parent.... God is an exalted man who once lived on an earth and underwent experiences of mortality.... The progression of our Father in heaven to godhood, or exaltation, was strictly in accordance with eternal principles,... His marriage partner is our mother in heaven. We are their spirit children, born to them in the bonds of celestial marriage....
” ‘God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man,...’ (Smith, Teachings, p. 345.)...
“Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is (Orson Hyde, JD, 1:123.)” (Achieving a Celestial Marriage, 1976, page 129)
Another LDS manual holds out the hope to faithful LDS that they, too, can one day be Gods over their own earths:
“Exaltation is eternal life, the kind of life that God lives.... We can become Gods like our Heavenly Father. This is exaltation.... Those who live the commandments of the Lord and receive eternal life (exaltation) in the celestial kingdom... will become gods.... They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.” (Gospel Principles, Published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 1986, pages 289-290)
Mormonism maintains God and man are the same species and part of an eternal procession of men becoming gods. Included in this concept is an innumerable host of parent-gods, grandparent-gods, etc., extending back into the past. Christianity, on the other hand, sees God as unique, holy, eternally existing as God from all ages past as well as future. Christians have cited such passages as the following to support this belief:
“... I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
“I, even I, am the Lord and besides me there is no saviour.” (Isaiah 43:10-11)
“God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers, 23:19)
Writing in Galatians 1:8, the Apostle Paul declared: “But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” The reader will remember that in our lead article we quoted President Joseph F. Smith as claiming that “an angel of God, with a drawn sword, stood before him [Joseph Smith] and commanded that he should enter into the practice of that principle [i.e., polygamy], or he should be utterly destroyed, or rejected.” Joseph Smith also told this same story to Mrs. Lightner when he tried to persuade her to enter into the practice. While it is possible that Joseph Smith made up this story just to talk young women into going into plural marriage, Paul’s warning in Galatians would lead us to conclude that if such “an angel” did, in fact, appear with “a drawn sword” in hand it would have to be from the wrong source. Paul also warns that “Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.” (2 Corinthians 11:14)
While the present Mormon leaders have given up the idea that exaltation comes from plural marriage, as we have already shown, they still maintain that “Eternal life cannot be had any other way” than through celestial marriage in a Mormon temple. In other words, they still cling to the same revelation which Joseph Smith gave to establish polygamy (Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132). This is clearly some “other gospel” than what we find in the Bible. Jesus Himself proclaimed that “whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” (John 3:15) Moreover, the Apostle John declared: “These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5:13)
http://utlm.org/onlinebooks/mclaims8.htm
Subject: Mormons are micro-managed
Date: Jun 21 00:23 2004
Author: bob mccue
Dr. Wright said, “The Mormon Church does not micro manage its members.” I must confess to almost falling out of my chair when I read this. In fairness to Dr. Wright, I should note that the idea of Mormon micro-management can only be understood relative to something else. And, it is clear to me that Mormonism does not micro-manage the lives of its people more than do the Taliban, or the Old Order Amish, for example. But, when compared to most of North American society, there can be no doubt that Mormonism micro-manages its people.
Let me provide just a few examples. Mormons who have been through a Mormon temple and made the covenants required there are told what kind of underwear they must wear. Because of its leg and arm length, that underwear restricts the kind of clothes they can wear. They are told that this underwear must be worn “night and day”, which is often interpreted by those in authority (as it was in the Mormon temple at Cardston, Alberta for my wife and my benefit when we married there) to mean that this underwear must be put back on after spouses make love, and before they go to sleep. Some believe that it must be worn while making love, although the newer versions of this underwear make this unfeasible. I hence suspect that this belief will die out.
Mormons have from time to time been specifically counseled as to what constitutes appropriate and inappropriate sexual conduct between spouses. Oral sex and other “unnatural” sexual practices, for example, have been labeled inappropriate.
Mormons are not supposed to drink even moderate amounts of tea, coffee or alcoholic beverages of any kind. The recent indications from the medical community that things such as green tea and red wine in moderation are good for human health are not considered persuasive to Mormons.
Mormons are supposed to give 10% of their income as a minimum offering, and more if they are able. Mormons are supposed to donate most of their discretionary time to meetings and other “service” within the Mormon Church community.
Mormons are not supposed to watch R rated movies (no account is taken of how that standard varies from country to country, and how it varies in terms of sexual context, violence, etc., or how it varies as time passes).
It is defined as “apostasy” and is an excommunicable offence for a Mormon to criticize the leaders of the Mormon Church or to communicate with other members respecting beliefs that are contrary to those endorsed by the Mormon leaders. As Dr. Wright indicated, that leaves Mormons free to talk about lots of things. But, a clear line is drawn with respect to anything that would cause other members to question the wisdom or authority of the current leadership.
Mormons who wish to attend Mormon temples must pass a two stage worthiness interview with male, local leaders that involves acknowledging the authority of local and general Mormon leaders, and answering personal questions related to matters of belief and behavior. Here are a few of the questions:
? Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?;
? Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?;
? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?;
? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?;
? Do you live the law of chastity?;
? Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?;
? Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?;
? Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?;
? Are you a full-tithe payer?;
? Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?;
? Do you wear the garment [temple underwear] both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
A ?temple recommend? or permit to enter the temple will only be issued if these questions are answered to the satisfaction of the Mormon leaders who conduct the two separate interviews required in this regard. As I write this, I recall for the first time in many years the ?Alice down the rabbit hole? experience it initially was for me to ask these questions of the adult members of the Mormon congregation over which I presided as Bishop. But, it is amazing what we can come to regard as ?normal? after we have done it for a while.
To keep a continuous temple recommend this process must be repeated at least ever other year. Similarly invasive interviews are conducted every six months with teenagers between the ages of 12 and 18 for the purpose of monitoring their “worthiness”. Parents are encouraged to conduct the same kind of interviews with the children. The effect of such regular acknowledgment of the one’s personal submission to Mormon authority is in my view a large part of what makes Mormons as uncritically submissive to authority of many types as they are.
Testimony bearing (in most cases, standing before a group of people and telling them that you believe the Mormon Church is God’s one and only true church etc.) is an important part of Mormon culture. The things that are to be said as part of a “real” or “true” testimony have been prescribed by Mormon leaders. Members who depart from the approved script as criticized in subtle and not so subtle ways by other members. The effects of this behavior from a cognitive dissonance point of view were described above.
Mormons are assigned to visit each others homes on a monthly basis. The women visit the women, and the men are responsible for entire families. This is kind of an “assigned friend” idea that has merit in some ways. The “gospel messages” are written and assigned by Mormon leaders and appear in the monthly edition of a magazine read by most Mormons. The frequent repetition of the words of particular Mormon leaders engrains those within both the Mormon culture, and the mentality of the individuals Mormons who each month hear, and repeat, these messages. A Mormon man, for example, might visit four families and repeat some variation of the monthly message at each visit, and then hear the same message repeated when his assigned friend comes to visit. The same process works for the Mormon women who visit each other.
Mormonism does not involved a paid clergy at the local level, and so sermons, lesson etc. each week are prepared by congregation members and taught to each other in the various youth and adult classes that occur during the three hour main block of meetings that Mormons attend each Sunday. However, Mormons are strongly discouraged from using any materials to prepare their lessons other than the scriptures (Bible, Book of Mormon etc.) and very thin lesson materials that the Mormon Church provides. The emphasis is to be on bearing testimony and expressing feelings, along with quoting from the scriptures and the statements of Mormon leaders that dominate the lesson materials. In particular, Mormons are discouraged from getting commentaries or going onto the Internet to do research in order to understand the background with respect to what they are teaching. The reason for this is clear ? the more Mormons dig into any of the scriptures and particularly, Mormon history, the more disturbing questions they tend to ask. Hence, it is best to minimize those questions by focusing lessons on the bearing of testimony and a superficial presentation of the materials in question.
Mormon teenagers and youth leaders are provided with a booklet called “For the Strength of Youth”, in two formats. The first is purse size, and the second is wallet size. They are encouraged in a variety of ways to master its contents. It describes in summary form the “standards” by which the young people are supposed to live, including things like abstaining from sexually related activities, reading the scriptures daily, dressing in certain ways, the number of earrings women can wear; the importance of avoiding body piercing, tattoos and other ?extreme? forms of dress or personal style, etc.
Mormon teenagers and other unmarried Mormons are strongly discouraged from dating non-Mormons, and a significant effort is made to keep their plates so full of Mormon related activities that they simply do not have the time required to foster non-Mormon friendships of a significant sort. They are encouraged, however, to bring non-Mormon friends to Mormon activities and to help to convert them to Mormonism.
Mormons are supposed to engage in numerous daily, weekly and monthly rituals that are designed to remind them of their beliefs and engrain those beliefs in them. These rituals include various daily personal, family and spousal prayers; daily personal, family and spousal scripture study; weekly meetings of many kinds; five day per week early morning group scripture study for students in grades 9 ? 12, usually taught at or near the school the kids attend; weekly “family home evenings”; monthly visits received by, and paid to, other assigned families within the congregation; and miscellaneous meetings with missionaries, to prepare for lessons that are taught each week, and to perform a host of other teaching or learning functions with respect to the Mormon cultural milieu.
I could keep going, but am running out of both time and patience for this task. It would be very difficult to chronicle the length and breadth of Mormon ritual. So, I suggest to Dr. Wright that when the demands that Mormonism makes on its members are compared to most other mainstream North American religions, it is in my view not possible to reasonably conclude that the Mormon Church is doing anything other than micro managing its members.
Subject: Re: Mormons are not micromanaged - More for Dr. Wright
Date: Jun 21 00:46
Author: Lorraine Hewlett
That was a great summary. I felt exhausted at the end of it remembering that I used to do all those things. I thought it was a really good point about Mormon youth being kept so busy with Mormon activities that they really have no time to foster relationships with non-Members; besides, if they do get to know non-members they are expected to share “the gospel” with them and bring them to activities in the hopes that they will join Mormonism.
I remember, back in the University ward in Edmonton, being so busy with activities that I was quite exhausted at times (Friday night activity, Saturday night dance, and fireside Sunday night), especially when exams were on. I remember people skipping activities (which they were expected to attend; people noticed who was not there) so they could study.
The one thing you could add about the micro-management of church members’ lives is with respect to procreation. Church leaders even want control of your reproductive parts as well. And they have a significant “policy” statement in the Bishop’s handbook about the topic of surgical sterilization (you are probably familiar with that, having been a Bishop). It’s not very understanding of members’ individual situations (physical health, mental health, financial situation, etc.). Personally I was outraged that a bunch of men in Salt Lake City were trying to control me in such a way.
Good for you for refuting Dr. Wight’s incredibly misleading argument. He is protecting the illusion the church tries to maintain and is not willing to admit the truth as you are so willing to do.
I know you are tired and have every right to be impatient with the man, but your hard work will help a lot of other people. I am sure of that.
Cheerio,
Lorraine
Subject: Of course Mormonism micro-manages the member’s lives - they just call it something else like:
Date: Jun 21 01:55
Author: SusieQ#1
Want more micro-managing? Take a look at the Honor Code for BYU, for instance.
Subject: Dont forget the big deal church leaders make over earrings...
Date: Jun 21 10:32
Author: Deconstructor
Although the Mormon Prophet says God has “no opinion” on stem cell research, apparently God is passionate about earrings.
If this isn’t micro-management (with a nice dose of divine threats) then I don’t know what is:
“Latter-day prophets strongly discourage the piercing of the body except for medical purposes. If girls or woman desire to have their ears pierced, they are encouraged to wear only one pair of modest earrings. Those who choose to disregard this counsel sow a lack of respect for themselves and for God. They will someday regret their decisions.”
- Current LDS Youth Pamphlet, “True to The Faith, a gospel reference.”
“We?the First Presidency and the Council of the Twelve?have taken the position, and I quote, that ?the Church discourages tattoos. It also discourages the piercing of the body for other than medical purposes, although it takes no position on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of earrings.?”
- Gordon B. Hinckley, ?Your Greatest Challenge, Mother,? Ensign, Nov. 2000, 97
“Likewise the piercing of the body for multiple rings in the ears, in the nose, even in the tongue. Can they possibly think that is beautiful? It is a passing fancy, but its effects can be permanent. Some have gone to such extremes that the ring had to be removed by surgery. The First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve have declared that we discourage tattoos and also ?the piercing of the body for other than medical purposes.? We do not, however, take any position ?on the minimal piercing of the ears by women for one pair of earrings??one pair only.”
- Gordon B. Hinckley, ?Great Shall Be the Peace of Thy Children,? Ensign, Nov. 2000, 50
“As for the young women, you do not need to drape rings up and down your ears. One modest pair of earrings is sufficient.”
- Text of a talk given to youth and young single adults on 12 November 2000 at the Conference Center in Salt Lake City and broadcast by satellite throughout the Church.
BYU Dress Code, which is another great example of micro-management:
http://www.byu.edu/honorcode/honor_code.htm#DRESS
This again demonstrates that when the church controls the environment, they go for micro-management instead of just teaching broad “correct principles and then letting the people govern themselves.”
Subject: just reading this made me realize
Date: Jun 21 10:44
Author: gemini
Subject: Some other observations..
Date: Jun 21 10:48
Author: Deconstructor
I would also recommend that you mention that the church enforces payment of 10% of each member’s income with annual “tithing settlement” interviews. In these end-of-the-year interviews, each member must meet with the Bishop, review their church tithing payment throughout the year and declare themselves full or partial tithe payers.
Those who declare themselves partial tithe payers must work out a payment plan with the bishop to pay a full 10% tithe on their income, or lose their temple recommend. Without a temple recommend, members cannot attend temple weddings of even their closest family members.
Just another example of the church micro-managing the personal (in this case, financial) affairs of its members.
Subject: Good summary, some comments
Date: Jun 21 11:42
Author: Mojo Jojo
I am not aware that that church regulates sexual behavior between spouses anymore. I’ve never, ever heard a talk, or been counseled, to avoid oral sex or other sexual practices. These are largely relics of the past. In the past, many church leaders also preached against birth control, but we don’t hear that at all anymore.
Some of the things you mention are in theory only. Most members do not home teach or visit teach faithfully, and when they do, it’s rarely about indoctrination—it’s rote and going through the motions. Home and visiting teaching is more a source of guilt than indoctrination.
You might add the bit about women not working, although broader social changes is making this more and more in word only, as a significant % of female members ignore this and work outside the home, although I suppose many still don’t in obedience to prophetic counsel.
You might also talk about the incessant drumbeat toward girls that their role is to be a “mother in Zion.”
You might also talk about the incessant drum beat about avoiding sex among unmarrieds, and the church’s unnatural obsession with the sex lives of unmarrieds.
You may note that much of the pressure to conform is cultural, in which members internalize what they hear, or perceive they hear, and then create a closed system that punishes deviant behaviors.
You might also point out that the degree to which one feels oppressed is directly proportional to the degree one holds dissenting views. Those who willingly agree and go along, don’t feel like the church is micromanaging them. Others, like many of us who think independently, feel severely oppressed.
Subject: Re: Good summary, some comments
Date: Jun 21 11:54
Author: gemini
Subject: Re: Mormons are not micromanaged - More for Dr. Wright
Date: Jun 21 12:13
Author: Singles ward reject
This is sick, and why I left the freaking cult.
Subject: How about this one, Bob?
Date: Jun 21 12:42
Author: EOTC
FAMILY HOME EVENING!...Great Idea!
But no sooner did the church give families this free time, then families were baffled as to how to spend it. So the church had to created an OFFICIAL MANUAL to instruct members how to use their discretionary, Free Time! With this, another CHURCH MEETING was born!
HURRAY!
Mormons are like caged birds who don’t know what on earth to do when the cage door is opened! To Mormons doors are frightening, not liberating!
P.S. Bob, when are you going to write a book? You’ve got enough material on your own (and from this board) that it could be a down-to-earth yet scholarly Magnum Opus. Or, at least a “Mormon Oh-Piss”!
Subject: A list for “active” members...
Date: Jun 22 00:22
Author: The Wonderer
Okay, this list is limited to the things that Latter-day Saints are commanded or expected to do as “active” members of the church. I realize that there are many other things that we are _encouraged_ to do, and different tracks one can take off on, in being “anxiously engaged in a good
cause.”
DAILY
Personal prayer
Family prayer
Scripture study
Seminary for HS students
WEEKLY
Family home evening
Sunday church attendance
Sabbath observance
YM/YW activities for teens
MONTHLY
Fast (with a purpose)
Pay tithing, fast offering, other offerings
Home teaching/Visiting teaching
Receive home/visiting teachers
Temple attendance, if near a temple
Enrichment night for RS sisters
YEARLY
Tithing settlement
LIFETIME
Mission (at least one)
Marriage
Bear (or acquire) and raise children
ONGOING
Hold a calling
Service projects
Temporal preparedness, food storage, garden
Genealogy
Member missionary work
Keep journal, records of family
Ward social activities
Have I left out anything important? Listed anything that isn’t really “expected”?
The way I figure it, we have approximately 500 waking hours every month. Counting up the amount of time taken to actually do most of these activities, I figure it adds up to more than forty hours, and more like fifty for anyone who has to prepare for lessons or attend YM/YW activities.
In short, the church requires not only 10 per cent of our “increase” but also 10 per cent of our time.
http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon355.htm
sorry for the repeat, room...two thumbs and a cellphone
Hey, at least they aren’t scientologists.
You don't seem to share the purity and simlicity of the gospel message. You seem to manipulate it. All this other stuff you're bent on burdening others with your buddy Paul the Apostle seemed willing to overlook. His attitude was that whether by Paul or Apollos the message was still getting out.
mormons and christians do NOT believe in the same Jesus
christians believe Jesus was the Son of God
mormons believe Jesus was a man who lived according to mormon principles, had wives and children, and BECAME a 'mormon god', to serve as an example to mormons of what they can accomplish if they live the perfect mormon life
in addition, mormons believe Jesus tried to spread the mormon faith in palestine, in north america ( and some say in ancient egypt also) and that in each instance he FAILED...and that Joseph Smith was sucessful where Jesus was a failure
when Joseph Smith was killed in a gunfight with an angry mob, mormon theology immediately seized on his death as 'the sacrifice of the second lamb' officially making him the successor to the 'failed' Son of God
today under "presidential authority' whoever leads the lds has literally become christ on earth...they believe the prayers of an entire world are unheard by God because the president of the mormon church is the only divine link to God and his 'authority' to let God hear prayers only extends to members of the mormon church
mormons believe EVERYONE will be resurrected!...some will be resurrected to a hell-like purgatory, some will be resurrected to be servants of the 'mormon gods', and the few who live their lives perfectly as mormons become gods, and only the gods experience heaven as we know it and go on to create planets and worshippers to perpetuate the process
CHRISTIANITY: “If you believe Jesus is the Son of God, then God abides with you and you abide with God.”
MORMONISM: “Jesus was a man who exalted himself to become a mormon god, and so can you! Simply complete this list:
DAILY
Personal prayer
Family prayer
Scripture study
Seminary for HS students
WEEKLY
Family home evening
Sunday church attendance
Sabbath observance
YM/YW activities for teens
MONTHLY
Fast (with a purpose)
Pay tithing, fast offering, other offerings
Home teaching/Visiting teaching
Receive home/visiting teachers
Temple attendance, if near a temple
Enrichment night for RS sisters
YEARLY
Tithing settlement
LIFETIME
Mission (at least one)
Marriage
Bear (or acquire) and raise children
ONGOING
Hold a calling
Service projects
Temporal preparedness, food storage, garden
Genealogy
Member missionary work
Keep journal, records of family
Ward social activities
and your bishop, once he feels you’re well and truly brainwashed into the cult, will give you a PIECE OF PAPER THAT GETS YOU INTO HEAVEN...the coveted “Temple Recommend” that allows you to put on fig leaves and a cef’s hat and do the hokey-pokey in the mormon temple, and it’s these masonic rituals that get you to heaven and make you a god, simply because the mormon president says so and the lds leader is both prophet and the holder of all godly authority on earth
many of us here are ex-mormons, and yet you think youre the authority on mormon salvation...so ARE you a mormon, just stirring up the shyte for your lord and savior Peepstone Joe, or what?
Can I get all that in a little trac? I might go out witnessing today.
The highest authority in mormonism - their prophet (profit) made the following statement -
‘President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” ‘(LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).
Christians and mormons agree - the mormon ‘jesus’ is not the same Jesus as Christianity.
They're both manipulators of the Purity, simplicity and power of the ressurection. I'm an equal opportunity voice of reason.
i answered your question, and your response is clearly that of a fool whos too much of a coward to conront the issue he himself raised
and i suspect you ARE a mormon troll, and i will treat you as such
Why - as a believer in reason there is no resurrection for you. So there is no purity, simplicity or power to you.
Reason only believes in itself.
but i suggest you shift gears
since its pointless to educate someone that dedicated to being as ignorant as he is
“You seem to be on shaky ground. As far as I can tell both Christians and Mormomns believe the same guy ressurected 2,000 years ago. And you’re telling Mormons their belief in the ressurerection doesn’t have enough power to save them?”
Let’s see...
Either you didn’t read what I wrote
or, it is a failure to understand th Gospel
Or, you too are wearing the magic underwear
I should have believed you and didn’t...it was a time waster. :O) I will give serious consideration to future time wasters......LOL
"You seem to be on shaky ground. As far as I can tell both Christians and Mormomns believe the same guy ressurected 2,000 years ago."
And here is the first place that your post fails. The Jesus Christ that Christians place their faith in for salvation is a very different person than the one taught by mormons. You must know who each is to see they are different. You seem to not know one or the other. Which don't you know?
"And you're telling Mormons their belief in the ressurerection doesn't have enough power to save them?"
Different person, different object of faith.
In addition, simple believe in a resurrection is not the totality of the Gospel of Grace.
The Apostle Paul explains the Gospel in I Corinthians 15
1 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.Paul makes it clear that the Gospel is more than the resurrection.3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
"You don't seem to share the purity and simlicity of the gospel message. You seem to manipulate it. All this other stuff you're bent on burdening others with your buddy Paul the Apostle seemed willing to overlook. His attitude was that whether by Paul or Apollos the message was still getting out."
The Apostle Paul includes more than the resurrection in his explanation of the Gospel. You have truncated the gospel to only the resurrection. If it was "as simple" as just saying anyone who believes in the resurrection (of anyone they like) will be saved, then Paul was far from simple. Instead, it is that your explanation is simplistic and reductionalistic. You have perverted the Gospel by making it less than it is.
Excellent answer that will bring knowledge to those seeking such.
To those bent on nothing but stirring the pot it will have no bearing...
Excellent answer that will bring knowledge to those seeking such.
To those bent on nothing but stirring the pot it will have no bearing...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.