Posted on 09/15/2012 12:00:12 PM PDT by STARWISE
As anyone who’s read my abstinence column here at Fox News Opinion could guess, my wedding is something that I’ve looked forward to for quite some time. After having tied the knot at the end of August, I can now say beyond all shadow of a doubt, that it was everything I’d hoped and prayed that it would be since childhood. (I’d also prayed to be bitten by a radioactive spider and develop sticky hands, but… I was an idiot.)
Let me preface this column by saying this: my wife (I have to get used to saying that) and I not only waited sexually in every way (no, we didn’t pull the Bill Clinton and technically avoid “sex” sex,) but we didn’t shack up as live-ins and most importantly, we courted each other in a way that was consistent with our publicly professed values.
We did it right.
Feeling judged? I couldn’t care less. You know why? Because my wife and I were judged all throughout our relationship. People laughed, scoffed and poked fun at the young, celibate, naive Christian couple.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
I suppose it makes you feel good to wax philosophic on something you've never done.
Talk to me after 20 years of marriage and sending a couple kids off to college.
In a word, no. I have a female friend who has had premarital sex and it doesn’t affect our friendship one bit. Mostly we don’t talk about it. What would be the point? I know I’m not going to change the way she lives and she’s not going to change the way I live. It’s not like anything I say can ever make her a virgin again. So yes, it is possible to oppose the lifestyle choice of premarital sex without alienating friends and family or resorting to petty name-calling.
Regarding the “19 Kids and Counting” episode I’d like to point out that any scenario you see on TV is either a) an artificial creation of a team of writers or b) in the case of reality shows an extreme situation and not at all a typical representative. The commonplace just doesn’t entertain people as much as the bizarre. I might also add that marriage after only 6 months of knowing each other, regardless of how far the couple goes or doesn’t go during that 6 months, is generally regarded as an unwise decision by most people.
As for the other couple you mentioned I agree with the poster who said that the wife’s previous premarital experiences raised her expectations for sex that the husband just couldn’t compete with. Marriage shouldn’t involve having to compete with all your spouses’s exes on a sexual basis. And if sexual technique is really an issue perhaps the spouse that feels shortchanged could suggest improvements. It’s also possible the husband was asexual or close to it. I imagine some asexual men out there do get involved with women they are not attracted to because they fear being falsely perceived as gay and the stigma that our culture attaches to homosexuality.
Premarital sex actually does increase the probability the couple will divorce. I’ll send you a link to the study I read as soon as I can find it again. I don’t have premarital sex because I’ve been in relationships where I got screwed over in the figurative sense and I don’t want to get screwed over in the literal sense too. Would my last relationship have lasted longer if I’d had sex with the guy? Probably but he would still have broken up with me or I with him because, as he himself told me, he had never had a relationship that lasted longer than 6 months. And when the inevitable breakup happened it would have been 10x more traumatic for me than it already was because the female body produces oxytocin during sex, which chemically bonds her to her sexual partner. Oxytocin can really wreak havoc on a woman’s emotions when her sexual partner breaks off the relationship especially if it’s a long-term one. I hope you and your girlfriend have a happy and successful relationship but if you ever break up prepare for some emotional drama.
But to your point "Not for everyone though" -- why? My wife and I did this -- and yeah, it is hard... especially for guys in their 20s, but it's also hard in this society for everyone.
People eXPECT you to have had sex before marriage, to live together etc.
but in my humble opinion, living together before marriage lessens the value of marriage because one thinks "oh, it's a trial period" and then one can jump from one trial period to another and this then extends to marriage again - people even have the idea that the first marriage is a trial period
Also, everyone has their own habits etc. -- the argument that one should experience this first before settling means that one can then divorce for the slightest inconvenience -- marriage should be more about learning to live with the other's foibles... accepting them,perhaps even getting to love the eccentricities
This is what I believe. What do you think?
I am going to close now....this topic is important
...but...
the most important thing is that we get rid of zer0bama in November.
you are correct. Got to focus on getting Obama Out.
I'm the one who said the evangelical church world has a major problem in this area.
However, I can't agree with “zero difference.”
We also need to clarify our terms.
“Professing Christians” would include everything from “Christmas and Easter” people who aren't even on the membership rolls of a church anywhere to people in high-commitment congregations with a strong emphasis on personal conduct.
We also need to deal with the reality of repentance from sin. There's a huge difference between two young people in a lukewarm supposedly evangelical church who decide to go to bed and don't think it's that big of a deal, and a woman in college who has “been around” and has a radical conversion which results in a firm commitment not to be sexually involved with anyone else until marriage.
I realize it is impossible to statistically measure personal faith. However, church attendance is a statistically valid measure of the externals of personal commitment. It's not perfect, of course — we all can talk about people who have legitimate reasons not to be in church — but it is statistically valid.
You would find major differences in rates of promiscuity, as defined by multiple sexual partners over a designated period of time, and the rates of premarital sexual activity, if the general American population were compared to those who attend church or synagogue weekly or more often and did so during the period of time when pre-marital and non-marital sexual activity is being measured.
It started with the Age of Reason and escalated with the French Revolution and rise of communist/anarchist writing. Pope Pius IX warned Catholicism in the Syllabus of Errors, as did many of the great 19th century Evangelicals.
The Russian Revolution and subsequent rise of totalitarianism SEEMED to be a wake up call for western civilization, but it really wasn't, C.S. Lewis saw this and warned that secular humanism was the greatest threat we faced.
In the past fifty years, we have seen Christians embrace all forms of humanist heresy. Nonsense that would have been unfathomable (same-sex "marriage", abortion, etc.) a century ago has increasingly become the norm.
So yes, it is not surprising that young people who call themselves Christians engage in premarital sex. The ONLY thing young people are typically taught regarding sex is that it must be "safe."
But, in spite of all of society's pressures to the contrary, I have noticed an increase in young people embracing traditional Christian morality in the past ten to fifteen years. They have seen a generation lost to abortion, they have seen the destroyed and empty marriages of their parents and grandparents and they are finally awakening to the realization that God's plan is the only one that will result in an abundant life.
Drive around on a Sunday morning and you will SEE the churches where the true Gospel is being preached. You will know these churches because you will see young families with children who WANT to be there, you will see teenagers who look happy (and are dressed appropriately). These are the same people that we saw several weeks ago in Chik-fil-A who were happy to wait up to an hour in a crowded restaurant just to show Chik-fil-A that people really do care. So yes, true Christians are all around us, we just have to open our eyes and see them.
Good post. Help yourself to a Guinness and a kitten!
I worded my thoughts wrong or was not clear. She did not leave him over his technique(which can be approved upon) but from what I remember he was basically a cold fish/frigid..whatever you want to call it.
You are generalizing. Not all people think this way. Most couples still wait for marriage to have kids.
A relationship isn’t really committed if you haven’t committed in a more meaningful way than saying “I love you”. Marriage is a covenant with God where the man and woman commit to each other and commit to raising any children which may result from their conjugal union.
A couple in my hometown have lived together for 35+ years, 4 kids. He is a contractor by trade and has practically rebuilt the church they attend for no payment and his wife is the lightning rod in the church on various meetings and getting things done. Do you really think God looks at them less over another married Christian couple who just attend church but don't do much?
Face it, tomorrow your GF could tell you she is pregnant, what then? Would you marry her?
She can't have children but if it did happen I would.
If so, why haven’t you already? If not, why are you sticking around?
It's complicated. I am 27 and she is 45(divorced). Not what you think...We were best friends for a very long time(lived next door to each other). We are both gym/fitness freaks and we drove to the gym every day to work out and then came home to cook(another shared interest) and shared dinners most evenings. We also did many activities together-movies/running events and even going to the store because we just clicked and being next door to each other it was conveinent. Truly became very best friends over a long period of time..and nothing sexual although we both started falling in love with each other but held off for the longest time-we were both unsure and scared of ruining our great friendship. It was a big leap but one night we became lovers that is the least crudest way I can say it (and she initiated the sex)..and here we are 3 years later. Never thought I would be in this type of relationship but it happened. TBH we are still struggling with the age issue but we do love each other very much. 95% of the people we know are happy for us and many have said they are envious of out great friendship and love.
Premarital sex is simply serial polygamy with women who you haven’t fully committed to.
Maybe promiscuous sex but premarital sex in a loving, committed relationship where both parties love each other well no. Most people in these relationships would never believe in cheating etc and are 100% committed to their partners...they just have not become married yet.
When I was still religious in college my sophmore and junior years I was very active in "Campus Crusade for Christ". None of the people in that organization were slooting around/hooking up with randoms but 75-80% of couples in a relationship were having premarital sex...and that is a realistic figure. I lived in a coed dorm with many of these people and saw it. That is just how it is today. I have only 2 guys in HS/college and the workforce who said they were waiting until marriage.
But, in spite of all of society's pressures to the contrary, I have noticed an increase in young people embracing traditional Christian morality in the past ten to fifteen years.
I agree 100%. But the majority are having premarital sex...at least the <30 age group. You have to realize many people say they are not(but they are) or they know how strong you feel about the subject and just want to apease you and not create waves so they give you the impression they are for abstinence.
A year or so ago my gf and I were going to work out about 5:30 am and we pass the house of the associate pastor of a local nondenominational church. He is a very strong Christian and well liked. He is in his early 30's. We know him well because he works out with us on occasion. Saw HIS girlfriend leaving the side door of his house walking to her car parked out front with DEW all over the windshield......we still laugh about that one.
Sin, wickedness and depravity affect all of us. If we say one thing and do something else, we have only ourselves to blame when you criticize us — quite correctly so — for not following our own standards of right and wrong.
Liberalism does not believe in objective standards of right and wrong. Neither of you are liberals, or you wouldn't be here. But please ask yourselves whether your form of secular conservatism is simply what people not that many years ago would have called licentiousness.
109 posted on Mon Sep 17 2012 14:34:17 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by wagglebee: “I think it is pretty safe to say that Christianity (Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox) has been under constant and escalating attack by satanic secularism for the past two and a half centuries.”
You are sure right about that! And what Vaquero and Trailhkr1 are saying is very good proof of what happens when we succumb to those constant and escalating attacks.
112 posted on Mon Sep 17 2012 18:24:33 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by trailhkr1: “You are generalizing. Not all people think this way. Most couples still wait for marriage to have kids.”
Check the rates of births to unmarried couples. I wish your statement were true.
I'm guessing your intent was to say that most men and women who are in committed relationships would prefer to wait to have a child until they get married. If so, we agree; things aren't yet as bad as they could be. However, would you not agree that lots of babies are born to women who are not part of a “couple” because they weren't in a committed relationship or because their boyfriends got cold feet and walked out when their girlfriends got pregnant?
112 posted on Mon Sep 17 2012 18:24:33 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by trailhkr1: “A couple in my hometown have lived together for 35+ years, 4 kids. He is a contractor by trade and has practically rebuilt the church they attend for no payment and his wife is the lightning rod in the church on various meetings and getting things done. Do you really think God looks at them less over another married Christian couple who just attend church but don't do much?”
What I think doesn't count. What God thinks does count. And he hasn't made an amendment to the Ten Commandments.
Important questions need to be asked about why this man and women are so active in their church. Good works don't get people into heaven, and **ESPECIALLY** not good works done in an attempt to “balance out” other sinful activity.
Look, I don't know these people and I don't want to make assumptions about motives. I don't know why they have lived together for 35 years and had four kids without getting married, and I don't know why their church has tolerated this situation. I'd want to know them and ask questions first. Without knowing the answers to some important questions there are limits to what can be said about these people, but it certainly appears that no matter what their reasons for living together without marrying, a lot of blame belongs to the pastor who has allowed this situation to go on for so many years.
Would we tolerate a man and woman openly shoplifting from Wal-Mart for 35 years (eighth commandment)?
How about a man and woman openly killing people for 35 years (sixth commandment)?
How about someone lying and slandering fellow church members for 35 years (ninth commandment) or coveting other church members’ houses, wives, or means of transportation (tenth commandment)? Oh, that one’s harder — too many churches **DO** tolerate what they call gossiping and backbiting, not realizing it is often lying, and too many churches do tolerate a “Keeping up with the Joneses” attitude which turns Sunday morning church into a fashion parade.
More could be said on this, but those of us who are (correctly) quick to criticize Vaquero, Trailhkr1, and others for their open support of Seventh Commandment violations need to make sure we aren't guilty of tolerating violations of other commandments, using the same logic as them but applying it to different commandments. And that's a warning to myself just as much if not more than to others.
112 posted on Mon Sep 17 2012 18:24:33 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by trailhkr1: “When I was still religious in college my sophmore and junior years I was very active in “Campus Crusade for Christ”. None of the people in that organization were slooting around/hooking up with randoms but 75-80% of couples in a relationship were having premarital sex...and that is a realistic figure. I lived in a coed dorm with many of these people and saw it. That is just how it is today. I have only 2 guys in HS/college and the workforce who said they were waiting until marriage.”
You had the integrity to admit you are no longer “religious” and have left what I'm guessing you would call “organized religion.” Have you considered that maybe the hypocrisy of these people in Campus Crusade played a part in that decision?
I generally avoid anecdotal arguments since my experience is my own and doesn't necessarily prove anything to anyone else who hasn't shared that experience. That's a key part of the problem with liberalism, by the way — focusing on sharing of experience rather than teaching fixed standards of right and wrong.
However, my experience with InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and Campus Crusade for Christ was very different from yours. I was an IVCF member at two different schools (I transferred from one college to another when I changed my major) and at the first college I was close friends with a number of Campus Crusade people. The chapters I saw of both organizations were composed of high-demand, high-commitment people who were living lifestyles that were radically different from their fellow college students.
All three chapters were pretty strongly criticized by “moderate” Christians on both campuses for being composed of “radical” and “extreme” people — sort of the way GOP-elite and RINOs look at Free Republic. There is simply no way that either of those organizations would have tolerated a member sleeping with their girlfriend or boyfriend.
I'm painfully aware of what has happened to InterVarsity in more recent years. I know enough staff people in Campus Crusade that what you are saying surprises me, but I have no reason to disbelieve what you're saying. Assuming what you say is true — and it probably is — the student leaders in that Campus Crusade chapter and the staff member assigned to that chapter have some serious accounting they're going to have to be doing to the Christ who died on the cross to save sinners from their sins.
113 posted on Mon Sep 17 2012 18:47:08 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by trailhkr1: “A year or so ago my gf and I were going to work out about 5:30 am and we pass the house of the associate pastor of a local nondenominational church. He is a very strong Christian and well liked. He is in his early 30’s. We know him well because he works out with us on occasion. Saw HIS girlfriend leaving the side door of his house walking to her car parked out front with DEW all over the windshield......we still laugh about that one.”
Your story proves a point you probably did not intend to make.
Non-believers watch the conduct of Christians and especially of Christian leaders. I don't know what this youth pastor was doing with his girlfriend in that house overnight (though your guess is probably correct). I have no desire to make excuses for his behavior. What I do know is that youth pastor, far from being a “strong Christian,” has given you and your girlfriend a reason to laugh at him long after the event.
Your stories are a clear warning to the rest of us that when we're tempted to compromise, we'd better remember that the world is watching what we do and they will laugh at us if we say one thing and do something else.
Look, Trailhkr1, I was converted out of a non-Christian environment. I'm not any kind of angel, and I'm certainly not naive — I am well aware of how much wickedness is out there.
You've shared some stories. Here's one of mine. I'm writing an article this morning on a mother who is an Army civilian employee who provided alcohol to a teenage sex party in her home involving her own daughter and numerous other teenagers, probably somewhere in excess of twenty different kids having group sex. Three of the situations involved consensual sex with minors that are considered statutory rape; the other sexual activity apparently involved people who were close enough in age that it wasn't statutory rape.
Is that enough to prove my point that I'm not some Pollyanna pie-in-the-sky naive Christian who doesn't know what goes on in the world? If not, I could cite hundreds of other sex crimes I've covered over the last quarter-century, up to and including mothers photographing their young daughters having sex with dogs, and the pastor of a very large church being deposed for “gross sexual misconduct” with at least 19 and probably 21 different women in his church.
While I didn't have sex with anyone until my wedding night, that was mostly because as a non-Christian other “socially acceptable” sins were dominating my life. Sins tend to cancel each other out, and if someone is dedicating his life to the pursuit of power and prestige, they're likely to avoid doing things which put those goals at risk.
What the sins I was committing as a non-Christian focused on greed and power, they were just as evil in God's eyes.
God's standards are very, very high. Gross sexual immorality is just one of many things tearing apart the United States, but it's not the only one.
As Christians, we need to pay close attention to what Wagglebee wrote. He is absolutely right that Christianity “has been under constant and escalating attack by satanic secularism for the past two and a half centuries.” Sexual immorality is an important arrow in the devil's quiver, but it is not the only one.
verbose...ain’t ya?
I grew up in a very strict Christian home and attended Catholic grade school from grades 1-8.
You've shared some stories. Here's one of mine. I could cite hundreds of other sex crimes I've covered over the last quarter-century, up to and including mothers photographing their young daughters having sex with dogs, and the pastor of a very large church being deposed for “gross sexual misconduct” with at least 19 and probably 21 different women in his church.
These are very serious crimes and no sane person thinks these are acceptable..but to compare these examples to 2 couples having premarital sex in a loving, committed relationship is a vast stretch.
I don't know why they have lived together for 35 years and had four kids without getting married, and I don't know why their church has tolerated this situation. but it certainly appears that no matter what their reasons for living together without marrying, a lot of blame belongs to the pastor who has allowed this situation to go on for so many years.
It's none of the pastors business and the arrangement is between the couple and God. Lot of people do way worse sins than living together(that no one knows about) and still go to church. If a pastor started checking people at the door for "sins" the churches would be empty.
As for you examples of the 6, 8 and 9 Commandments who is not against them?? And the seventh as well (adultery).
Early biblical talk about the 7th Commandment related to adultery with people having EXTRAmarital sex. Heck even in early Roman times it was NOT illegal for a husband to have sex with a slave or an unmarried woman. I believe early Judaism did not condemn sex outside a married situation.i.e two unmarried people.
TBH I go back and forth regarding my belief in God but in a nutshell I would think God looks at the whole persons life, how they led it, treated other people, helped people who are less fortunate, and does not sweat the small stuff (couple people getting a little nookie who love each other).
I believe that statistic is conceived out of wedlock; but not born out of wedlock. Fathers and brothers saw to that. (Did my graduate work on the social institution of marriage in the U.S.)
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