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To: Read Write Repeat
It IS Torah

Sigh....Not so fast.

The Torah (at least the written Torah) traditionally refers to the books of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy—i.e., the first five books of the Old Testament. The Talmud consists of the Mishnah (Oral Law) and the Gemara (Jewish commentary on the Mishnah). While these may be considered to be on equal footing with the written Torah among many Jews, they are not considered to be so among Christians. They would have been part of the religious background when Jesus said, “'...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'” (Matthew 15:9)

The statement in question ("If someone is coming to kill you, rise against him and kill him first.") is part of the Talmud. It is not found in the written Torah. It is not found in the Christian Bible, either in the Old Testament or the New Testament. That was my point.

The verse in Deuteronomy that was referred to as proof (which, I believe is not the verse usually used to justify the statement in question) says this (with the verses immediately before and after added for context):

“But if in the open country a man meets a young woman who is betrothed, and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die. But to the young woman you shall do nothing; in the young woman there is no offense punishable by death, for this case is like that of a man attacking and murdering his neighbor; because he came upon her in the open country, and though the betrothed young woman cried for help there was no one to rescue her.” (Deuteronomy 22:25-27)

The statement in question is not found in these verses (and cannot reasonably be implied from these verses). The statement in question is not stated anywhere in either the Old Testament or the New Testament. We might argue as to whether it is wise policy or not, or perhaps that it may even be implied from certain passages in the Bible. But it is not stated in the Bible, and I did not want people to be left with the impression that it is. If you think that it is, please let me know. Please provide book, chapter, and verse. Thanks. (I will be running errands for awhile, but I will gladly accept correction tonight when I return.)
129 posted on 01/13/2017 12:50:06 PM PST by Engraved-on-His-hands (Conservative 2020!)
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To: Engraved-on-His-hands; Lera; Red Badger; Red Wolf

“While these may be considered to be on equal footing with the written Torah among many Jews, they are not considered to be so among Christians.”

Speak for yourself, not all Christians because you’re decidedly among a minority.

Eretz Yisrael is beholden to Torah. Torah = The Law. The Law says you have a right to defend yourself against those who wish to destroy you. For example, if there’s trucks filled with chemical weapons headed to a known state sponsored terrorist group positioned on your border, The Law fully supports the decision to destroy those trucks.

The Law doesn’t prevent discussion with other nations about these actions, nor does The Law state you have to tell the world the reasons behind these actions.


135 posted on 01/13/2017 2:11:05 PM PST by Read Write Repeat
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To: Engraved-on-His-hands
You have been provided with the facts and several specific legal references, including no less an authority than Rashi. There are more.

Ignoring those and saying "I believe [it] is not the verse usually used to justify the statement in question" without any explanation gives you zero credibility.

It IS Torah. Because you don't want it to be, doesn't invalidate God's Truth.

Genuius Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan on the issue:

Just as one may kill in self-defense, so it is required to kill one who is pursuing or attacking another with murderous intent. Of course, if it is possible, one must save the person being pursued by injuring the attacker. Only when this cannot be done must we have no pity and kill the attacker.

Similarly, any assailant who might kill when provoked, such as a burglar or armed robber, must be killed by any bypasser to save the victim. Extending this to include all cases of endangering life, even a young child who does not know better, or an unborn baby, must be killed, since the life of the victim must be saved by any means.

We are taught that rape is equivalent to murder. Therefore, if one is attacking a woman with the intent of raping her, he may be killed to save her as long as he has not completed the act. Regarding a woman being sexually attacked, the Torah states, "Only the rapist shall be put to death… Since he attacked the betrothed girl in the field, even if she had cried out, there would have been no one to come to her aid" (Deut. 22:25, 27), which implies that if a rescuer is present, he may use any means to save her, even if it means killing the attacker. One may similarly save a man from homosexual attack.

http://www.aish.com/jl/i/mn/48932892.html

Torah trumps unsubstantiated opinion and ignorance ("and cannot reasonably be implied from these verses"). The literature is full of exacting explanations of exactly that.

150 posted on 01/13/2017 6:23:53 PM PST by Mr. M.J.B.
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