Ukraine Fears Western Capitulation on Russia as Cracks Emerge

Newsweek ^ | 7/16/22 | David Brennan

[Petrosius]

Please show us some internationally recognized maps of the sovereign nation of The Ukraine [AKA "The Borderland"] from centuries past.

You are confusing "nation" with "state." As with Ireland, the Ukrainian nation was occupied and ruled by foreign states, first Poland then Russia. But just as the Irish nation existed as a separate people under 800 years of English rule, so did the Ukrainian nation or people exist under Polish and Russian rule. As much as the Russians may not like it, Ukrainians are not Russians and Ukraine is not part of Russia. The Russians need to leave Ukraine and go home.

[kiryandil]

freeper Petrosius: Petrosius hasn't created an about page.

freeper Travis McGee: published author, US military veteran and weekly commentator on geopolitical events.

They're looking for more "people with serious opinions" like you on the Twittsewer, Pyetr. It's even better that you're anonymous. That makes your opinion even more seriouser.

[kiryandil]

Combat veteran American mercenaries are returning home with warnings that this was nothing like Iraq or Afghanistan. We haven't fought an enemy that wasn't wearing sandals since the Korean War.

I was enjoying the opinion of Ben Hodges the other day.

The dude has never been the subject of a serious artillery shelling - but he was pontificating about the RuZZian army and how they was gonna get beat up some moar by dem Ukies.

Of course, the little puke is a NeverTrump perfumed Obama prince, military ladder climber extraordinaire...

[Travis McGee]

"You are confusing "nation" with "state." As with Ireland, the Ukrainian nation was occupied and ruled by foreign states, first Poland then Russia. But just as the Irish nation existed as a separate people under 800 years of English rule, so did the Ukrainian nation or people exist under Polish and Russian rule."

Ireland, an ISLAND NATION, had one language and one people before the British under Cromwell INVADED the ISLAND NATION.

"THE Ukraine" [meaning "The Borderland"] describes a shifting sandbar where peoples, languages, empires and nations have shifted to and fro, appeared and disappeared, conquering and being conquered, for thousands of years.

To compare the case of the 100% finite ISLAND NATION of Ireland to the SHIFTING SANDBAR of "THE Ukraine" ("The Borderland") destroys your own argument.

[Travis McGee]

Pls see 44.

[JonPreston]

Ireland, an ISLAND NATION, had one language and one people before the British under Cromwell INVADED the ISLAND NATION.

Yes, and the Irish had a common religion too, until the Plantation of Ulster (colonization) under King James

Plantation of Ulster

[NorseViking]

Agreed, the idiots arguing it are annoying.

[kiryandil]

"THE Ukraine" [meaning "The Borderland"] describes a shifting sandbar

Exactly.

[Petrosius]

What has shifted is the borders of the ruling empires but a distinct Ukrainian population has remained throughout. The fact that they did not have the military power to resist the two empires that ruled over them does not negate that as a nation they existed. Ask a Ukrainian today if he is a Russian; he has a clear and distinct identity. No amount of historical rule by either the Poles or the Russians can erase that. The Ukrainians are not Russians; live with it!

[Stingray51]

Irish was the main language spoken in Ireland up through the late 1800s, and likely would be today but for the troubled history of the island (aka British rule). Irish has nothing in common with English. Comparing that to the relatively similar Ukrainian and Russian languages is silly.

[Petrosius]

Ukrainian is a distinct language from Russian. French, Italian and Spanish are all similar to each other. Does that give one of these nations the right to force its rule on the others? Try telling the Ukrainians that they are Russians.

[MercyFlush]

Comrade, is must call ‘special military operation’ or you make Ruler Putin angrees.

[Jim Noble]

"The truth is that some European politicians might be more interested in Russian gas rather than in Ukraine's victory,"

Uh, Dude?

Taking care of their people is their job.

Taking care of YOUR people is YOUR job, and you are not doing very well with it.

[Miguk]

It will be a race between

**the squishiest of EU politicians,
**the most cowardly of the WEF/EU "leadership",
**new military hardware contracts (MIC, Russia, EU),
**how quickly the EU can restart coal and/or nuclear power plants before winter,
**how hard the Ukraine/Russian mafia and oligarchs will play hardball with PedoClown_TheWhore regime,
**how much more of US citizen taxpayer money can reasonably be expected to be stolen and laundered through Ukraine,
**how long GW Zelensky and cronies can gaslight, threaten and propagandize the needless deaths of their own citizens to the world,
**how long before the Ukraine military collapses and runs for the western border,
**and after that happens, how soon GW Zelensky and other politically- and financially-connected oligarchs, flee the country with all that money,
**and finally, just how hot a summer, how wet/cold an Autumn, and how soon Winter comes to Europe and western Russia.

That last one is a hard and unavoidable deadline.

[JonPreston]

Excellent summary. Thanks

[MalPearce]

Doesn’t Russia have SOME agency in there?

I mean, I’m willing to buy the presence of a bit of “tail wagging the dog” but heck, they’re an 11 time zone country that Putin’s always reckoned could take the three Baltic states, Ukraine, Ukzbekistan, Georgia, Moldova and Chechnya back with one arm tied behind its back.

And, to be fair to the guy, he’s managed quite a large bit of that shopping list in the time he and his mates have been looting a trillion dollars out of the Russian economy.

I just don’t buy that poor old impotent Russia is completely a hostage to fortune in this conflict.

[Stingray51]

I never said that Ukrainian is not a distinct language from Russian. But nobody disputes that there are substantial similarities between the two languages. Irish Gaelic has virtually nothing in common with English - basically zero overlap.

[Petrosius]

My argument was that, like Ireland, Ukrainians are a distinct ethnic group or nationality despite not have their own national state. You are the one who brought up the question of language. That they have similar languages is irrelevant.

[Miguk]

Of course Russia has some responsibility and culpability in this conflict.

But after the rout and retreat from Afghanistan, the M.I.C., Pentagon and Democrats/RINOs, needed another Forever War.

So far, this one does not involve direct US troops shooting at Russians. US "mercenaries" CIA spies and operatives and foreign fighters (mercenaries), are arming, training, and providing intel to the Ukrainians. Real-time intelligence gathering and dissemination.

But unless the US is going to become directly involved (and nuclear war soon follows), I don't see the Ukes winning the artillery war. They are not now winning the propaganda war. And Russia has the bodies to occupy the land that was once Ukraine.

And with winter coming soon, blackouts in EU, power outages, rationing (energy and food) already starting, technical difficulties in restarting nuclear/coal plants and the not-soon-enough start times, no amount of gaslighting and propagandizing will fill empty bellys or keep the lights on.

Will it be France, Germany, England, Poland, the Baltics, Scandinavia that blink first ? It certainly won't be Russia.

[MalPearce]

Can’t disagree with that.

Ultimately though - what ideologies in the world hold Russia in check? It’s not the Left, it’s the Right.

What Russia has very skilfully done over thirty years is split the Right, especially in America, into factions that are too busy fighting each other to fight Putinism.

The evangelicals are triggered by Russia building churches and talking piously about family values, while the liberals and the left are undermining those values. But it’s all for show in Russia - with a declining population and a massive brain drain, and the birth rate only rising in the Islamic parts of their territory, who’s going to be attending these churches? If American Christians REALLY think this is a genuine thing, perhaps they ought to relocate.

The constant gaslighting over Zelenskyy doing two skits on telly donkeys years ago that were admittedly a bit faggy, doesn’t quite compute when you consider Biden’s a serially creepy sex pest, Putin’s a tummy-kissing kiddie fiddler (who executed a whistle blower who dared to go public with it), and both of them are up to their necks in Schwab’s NWO.

Ditto Z being disqualified for public office on account of having been an entertainer before going into politics. So was Reagan.

What I’ve never seen a coherent explanation for is, what did Trump ACTUALLY do to put Putin off invading Ukraine? Either he sold Ukraine out and that’s what stayed Putin’s hand, or he made a plausible threat of some biblical reaction. There’s no clear third option.

The only way to give Trump a clear benefit of the doubt is, he deployed the Art of the Deal with a side order of “we’ll kick your ass”.

So common sense would suggest that Biden’s talking tough while dithering on delivery has only encouraged Putin, but Trump’s negotiating style DID deliver results. In effect, the one thing Trump failed to do was keep his own Party and electorate united - he went out of his way to split the Trumpians, TPM and MAGAs from the RINOS... right at the time when the ambitions of China and Russia meant they absolutely HAD to find a way to work togther.

The split in the American conservative community was God’s Gift to Putin.