Posted on 09/22/2022 11:21:30 AM PDT by marcusmaximus
Russia had already declared its intent in spring, and is now going ahead with plans to annex the territories it has occupied in the south and east of Ukraine on a fast-track basis. Simultaneous votes in the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions have been scheduled from September 23 to September 27. In a speech on Wednesday, Russian President Vladimir Putin suggested that Moscow would recognize the results.
Just as it did with the Crimean annexation in 2014, Russia is making a point of appearing not to be involved. It was local Ukrainian politicians supported by the Russian military who announced the so-called "referendums." As in the case of Crimea eight years ago, the vote has been brought forward from a previously suggested date — that of November 4. Regional referendums are banned in Ukraine. Like in Crimea, there will be no independent election monitoring.
Yes' or 'no'
However, that is as far as the similarities go — there are far more differences.
Russian media are reporting that there will be regional differences. In Donetsk and Luhansk, the ballot will pose a single question, to be answered with a "yes" or a "no," on whether to join the Russian Federation.
In Kherson and Zaporizhzhia, three questions will be asked but only one "yes" or "no" answer will be possible: "Are you for secession from Ukraine, establishing an independent country and joining the Russian Federation?"
Voting will also take place in Russia, where hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have fled since 2014. The majority of Ukrainian refugees, however — several million — have fled to regions controlled by Kyiv and abroad.
(Excerpt) Read more at dw.com ...
Yeah, a referendum held under Russian military occupation is legitimate. Try again.
Ludicrous! Even Ukrainians will tell you they were not fighting Russians after the 2014 Euromaiden Revolution. From 2014 to January of 2022 they were fighting disenfranchised secessionist Ukrainians! After 8 years of fighting, the 3 Oblasts asked the Russians for help…And the got it!
Yeah, right. The militias were Russian surrogates, not a spontaneous uprising. Additionally, the so-called "referenda" were for autonomy, not independence, much less for union with Russia.
So Eastern and Southern Ukrainians (like my family in Dneiperpetrovsk) wanted their President Yanukovich Overthrown in Revolution? They wanted their language outlawed?
That’s not strictly accurate.
Russian resources in existing formats and publications were not being removed, far less banned.
NEW official stuff was to be published in Ukrainian language - mandatory.
Russian was optional in Oblasts that still use it.
Autonomy Regions like Crimea were entitled to keep, even promote, Russian. They were simply required to make all assets in Russian available in Ukrainian.
I honestly don’t get the furore over this. The cognitive dissonance is astonishing.
If any Latino county in a state of the USA refused to adopt English as its official language then no right thinking conservative would approve. Promoting English is a good thing surely.
As long as Latino languages aren’t “banned” even in the home in order to promote English, it ain’t fascist.
Poroshenko was fascist on this subject, Zelenskyy wasn’t. He learnt Ukrainian as a third language and speaks fluent Russian as his first language.
Bilingual Russian Ukrainians inside Ukrainian held areas are now dropping Russian in open conversation. That’s far more complicated and is clearly symbolic, but the reverse is happening in Russian held areas.
Mariupol’s first “rebuild” was the replacement of all road signage pointing towards the city, that was in Ukrainian, with Russian language signage.
Dumbass comments/questions like that are why I’m reticent to interact with people like you. You weren’t part of that conversation.
I was behind the overthrow of the corrupt SOB. Obama had nothing to do with it.
You’re right. It is not always ALL about the money but there is a money component. And not only the petro/coal resources but also the high value black soil areas. Ukraine has 40 percent of the world’s black soil farm land.
You and Biden...
So, you turn a blind eye to all of Russia’s crimes including the full-scale invasion. You point to relatively minor push back violence from Ukraine while you ignore the scum Russians and their destruction of tens of thousands of civilians in places like Mariupol (many bodies not yet recovered in the leveled urban rubble). You are a Bolshevik stooge and are truly what Stalin called an “enemy of the people.” I care about what happens there. My money (not tax money) goes to support Ukraine in their battle for freedom. I have family there. I want no compromise with the Bolsheviks thugs. Every inch of the Donbas and Crimea need to be liberated by Ukraine. It is a one-time-zone country battling an eleven-time-zone country and Ukraine is punching way above its weight class because its troops have the spirit of ‘76 (something you would never understand). Russia is the bully sending armored columns to settle Russian-made disputes with the Republic of Georgia and Ukraine. Death to the invaders! Glory to Ukraine!
Full blown hate and russophobia.
That is the downfall of Ukraine, that they succumbed to such hate. You certainly have been poisoned and blinded by it.
Bolshevism was a long long time ago, btw.
If Bolshevism was a long time ago why do Russian forces run of the hammer and sickle flags in occupied towns? Why did they change the name of Liberty Plaza to Lenin Plaza?
Because you have no valid response, you are just another neocon wanting our country to go deeper in debt to help corrupt Ukraine with its homo-erotic-dancer leader Zelensky.
Nope. The reality is you - like the rest of them - are locked onto your Russia Über Alles mindset and no counterpoint will move you off it. So, interacting with you is pointless. Don’t worry, though… you can talk among yourselves for mutual affirmation.
I hate Russia, and China and North Korea. Because they are all dictatorships.
You are a neocon inside out. That is why you are blinded to the fact that we are more broke than ever and it is asininely stupid to borrow money to send into foreign wars.
I hope Russia loses the war. Just do not want my children and grand children to be burdened with more national debt to support any foreign wars, much less corrupt Ukraine.
You clearly don’t have a clue. Now stop stomping around for attention and go chat with your friends. You are not worth my time.
You actually need for me to quote Biden, Blinken, and so on?
No matter. I am not going to bother. You cannot possibly be unaware of how Western leadership, and specifically US leadership, personalizes this conflict, with the willing help of the media.
However, while leadership, or lack of, matters, if what we have are essentially just cogs in a system, bigger issues exist. Point is / was, and rather goes back to my previous post too:
Let’s say Pooty had keeled over and died from natural causes in, oh, say, 2020. Would that have really changed anything in Russian leadership’s foreign policy / foreign policy goals? Oh, details of following events might change a bit. It’s very possible a more hardline Nationalist might have come to power. OTOH, a Trump (no system cog there!) 2nd term would almost certainly have put off Russia’s plans until a weaker US President took office. But the basic collision course of the direction and corrosive influence of the West; more recently, carried by that first, most of Ukraine, particularly the younger set, wanting to exit Russia’s sphere; and Russia’s centuries old quest for empire, would remain.
The centuries long evolution of representative republics in Western Europe is another such “current”. It certainly had it’s detours. But it persisted, and even today, those countries are not nearly so top down as is oft supposed. (Even Pooty trolls wax loudly about overthrows of Western gov’ts due to energy prices, but they cherry pick the factors in play. A different discussion...) MANY factors are at work in European governances, but in the end, Euro pols pretty much do (sometimes with some squirming and delays) what their voters want. I can give days of typing of examples, but I do have a very considerable & busy life outside FR, so, here’s one:
German defense spending: If you think Trump had a hard time trying to convince pols from wealthy Germany to spend more on defense, try convincing the average German voter in that time. That was not just Germans looking down their noses, it was genuine belief throughout most of their society that a major war in Europe in this century was impossible, that Europe had evolved past that. That even more than the idea America would bail them out in a pinch, because they believed such a situation would not occur. The paltry German defense budgets were, ultimately, pretty much what the majority of German voters were willing to spend, and a bit grudgingly at that.
Strategically, the ports and shipyards in SE Ukraine are a very big deal for Russia. The steelmaking too, once revitalized by an aggressive Naval buildup. Surely worth a few thousand soldiers — but Pooty miscalculated, there, and on the West’s response once it was clear Zelenskyy would fight.
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