Jesus is the fulfilment of Daniel's visions, and the church (comprising of both Jews and Gentiles) is the rock that became a mountain that encompasses the world
Posted on 03/01/2024 6:06:59 AM PST by SJackson
We'll explain it to you on the way up (if you are a Christian) -- hat tip to Chuck Missler.
“...the 19th century philosophy of the pre tribulation rapture”
That may be the first time you are aware of it, but actually it was decided before the foundation of the earth.
God is Spirit, and He exists outside of time.
(You know, like when the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the earth.)
The whole Bible story could be existeant in a split second to God if you wish to put it into the space time continuum.
God steps in and out of time when ever it pleases Him to do so.
God bless you, dear Cronos.
👍👍 😬
🛐🙏✝️
The great Dr. Ed Hindson said the same thing.
He has gone home now to be with the Lord.
Amazing story about him, too.
I don’t know if I can find the video.
I had no idea. Perhaps more later.
Actually the pre tribulation rapture was not “decided before the foundation of the earth”.
The pre tribulation rapture is non-biblical and non-Christian.
Jesus’ second coming will NOT be a silent “rapture” of people — Jesus told us to expect to be persecuted in His name.
And I apologize as it is long
Take the verses in the Bible that are cited by Darby and all those after him who cling to the p-t-r
Thess 4:13-17 or rather the whole 1 Thess 4and note that St. Paul does not mention any such rapture - The Bible uses three Greek words interchangeably13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep [k]in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive [l]and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a [m]shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive [n]and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.And very clearly in verse 7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto sanctification.What does this actually teach?
St. Paul wrote to the Thessalnian Christians because they were worried about those who died before Christ's return. Many in the ancient world believed that a person simply ceased to exist upon death.
These was a rumor in Thessalonica at the time Paul wrote the letter that the dead Christians had lost out on any chance of a physical resurrection. St.Paul assures them that it was not so. In fact, "the dead in Christ will rise first" to meet Christ
Rapturists make the mistake of thinking "meet the Lord in the air" is about Christ not actually touching the earth.
The word St. Paul uses for meeting the Lord "in the air" is aer the Greek word for atmosphere
This SAME word is used in Ephesians 2:2
And you [a]were dead [b]in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the [c]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.yet no one would claim that, because of this word, Satan wouldn't influence people on the earthA consistent rapturist reading of this wod here would mean that only airplane passengers are influenced by Satan's power
NO, when Christ returns to the earth's atmosphere, He has returned to earth
Rapturists trying to point to the "coming in the clouds" -- but this ignores the symbol of divinity in the clouds
Rapturists think that there is a different usage for each, but that is false - parousia is not used just for some fake "rapture" and the others for the 2nd coming
Paul doesn't mention this 19th century rapture idea as occuring before the appearance of the antichrist and before the second coming is simple: it never entered into his mind that anyone would believe Christ would rapture His Church before the final Eschaton
In the apocalypse, that is referred to as the battle with Gog and Magog, Christians will participate in that confrontation because there will be no secret rapture before it. Our comfort rests in Him who will emerge from that confrontation as the Victor.
THAT is the reassurance Paul offers, not the promise of an escape from the great Tribulation.
Then
1 Cor 15:51-53Let me remind you what Dr John Walvoord, President of the Dallas Theological Seminary in the 1950s and pre-Trib rapturist wrote in his 1957 book The Rapture question51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised [r]imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For this [s]perishable must put on [t]the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.BUT you excerpt instead of looking at the whole chapter, let's look at 15:20-26The Order of Resurrection 20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christs at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.The order is clearFirst, Christ was raised bodily from the dead. This event stands as a prophecy concerning our own personal future. Christ was the first fruit of those who have salled asleep
Second, Christians will be raised from the dead.
Third the end comes
THAT is the order. This is NOT the Rapturist timeline
Paul lays out a timeline that excludes the possibility of any pre-Trib secret rapture -- there is NO mention of a two-stage coming split into a secret rapture and a later public second eventthere is not even a hint of a secret rapture
There is one resurrection mentioned (not two as per the rapturists) and only one coming event -- immediately after this coming, not seven or 1000 or 1007 years later, the end arrives at which Christ delivered the Kingdom to God
Now we go onwards to 1 Corinthians 51-54
Rapturists like you say this is about a secret rap-game. But why? there is certainly nothing in this text that cannot be understood perfectly well as happening at the traditional second coming. In fact that is a better was to understand the text. Paul tells us that not all Christians will die, but that "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye... we shall all be changed"
We read that this will occur "at the last trumpet" -- the image of trumpets like in Zeph 1:14-16, Zech 9:14, Amos 3:6 etc. is LOUD and no secret rapture
Furthermore, this si not just any trumpet - this is the "last" trumpet The dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed at the end of time
But this last trumpet will not occur 7 or 1007 years before the end. The LAST trumpet sounds LAST
"When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: 'Death is swallowed up in victory'" At the time of this trumpet, death will be destroyed -- YET Paul has ALREADY mentioned that "the last enemy to be destroyed is death" (1 Cor. 15:26)
The secret rapture does not fit this passage. When death is destroyed and we are all raised, all tombs will be forever empty
The Rapture question is determined more by ecclesiology than eschatology. Neither postrtibulationalism nor pretribulationalism is an explicity teaching of Scripture. The bible does not in so many words state itThe 19th century Darby philosophy of rapturism fails each time
Premillenialism is a fail - the Millenium is mentioned only once - in the book of the Apocalypse that is filled with symbolism. Its mention immediately follows Rev 19 Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
and then rev 20: 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
This is clearly figurative.
Premils misunderstand the message of Isaiah, Jeremiah and the entire New Testament by claiming the Kingdom is purely corporeal
Both Pre and post are soundly wrong
The Millenium is a spiritual reign of Christ that has been present in the community of Christ since Pentecost.
The Bible continually uses the terms Kingdom of God, Kingdom of heaven, Messianic Kingdom and Church interchangeably
The entire bible is amillenial and the Rapturists can only distort Revelation 20:1-6 -- note "distort" to put their 19th century rapture philosophy
============================================
Yet we need to read what the Apostles themselves were taught and what they believed
Notice that they state that the Apostles and their listeneres were in the last days or the end of the age -- because the Messiah had come
Peter never changed his mind about this - as we read in 1 Pet 1:20 Christ was destined before the foundation of the world but was made manifest at the end of the times for your sake
This is relected in Pauline epistles like 2 Tim 3:1 "In these last days" and Jude 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.
We have been in the last days since that first advent of Christ
Since the Ascension God's plan has entered into its fulfillment. WE are already at 'the last hour'. Already the final age of the world is with us, and the renewal of the world is irrevocably under way
Let's look at the entire passage yes
[1] And Jesus being come out of the temple, went away. And his disciples came to shew him the buildings of the temple. [2] And he answering, said to them: Do you see all these things? Amen I say to you there shall not be left here a stone upon a stone that shall not be destroyed. [3] And when he was sitting on mount Olivet, the disciples came to him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the consummation of the world? [4] And Jesus answering, said to them: Take heed that no man seduce you: [5] For many will come in my name saying, I am Christ: and they will seduce many.In this Jesus answers two questions "When will the 2nd temple be destroyed"[6] And you shall hear of wars and rumours of wars. See that ye be not troubled. For these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. [7] For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be pestilences, and famines, and earthquakes in places: [8] Now all these are the beginnings of sorrows. [9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall put you to death: and you shall be hated by all nations for my name's sake. [10] And then shall many be scandalized: and shall betray one another: and shall hate one another.
[11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall seduce many. [12] And because iniquity hath abounded, the charity of many shall grow cold. [13] But he that shall persevere to the end, he shall be saved. [14] And this gospel of the kingdom, shall be preached in the whole world, for a testimony to all nations, and then shall the consummation come. [15] When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.
[16] Then they that are in Judea, let them flee to the mountains: [17] And he that is on the housetop, let him not come down to take any thing out of his house: [18] And he that is in the field, let him not go back to take his coat. [19] And woe to them that are with child, and that give suck in those days. [20] But pray that your flight be not in the winter, or on the sabbath.
[21] For there shall be then great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, neither shall be. [22] And unless those days had been shortened, no flesh should be saved: but for the sake of the elect those days shall be shortened. [23] Then if any man shall say to you: Lo here is Christ, or there, do not believe him. [24] For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. [25] Behold I have told it to you, beforehand.
[26] If therefore they shall say to you: Behold he is in the desert, go ye not out: Behold he is in the closets, believe it not. [27] For as lightning cometh out of the east, and appeareth even into the west: so shall the coming of the Son of man be. [28] Wheresoever the body shall be, there shall the eagles also be gathered together. [29] And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be moved: [30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all tribes of the earth mourn: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with much power and majesty.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a trumpet, and a great voice: and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the farthest parts of the heavens to the utmost bounds of them. [32] And from the fig tree learn a parable: When the branch thereof is now tender, and the leaves come forth, you know that summer is nigh. [33] So you also, when you shall see all these things, know ye that it is nigh, even at the doors. [34] Amen I say to you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. [35] Heaven and earth shall pass, but my words shall not pass.
The opening verses of the Olivet discourse set the scene for this - they left the temple and His disciples ask him about the temple
Jesus answer Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down - this was done by the Roman legions under Titus and is the final fulfilment of Micha 3:12
Therefore, because of you,
Zion shall be plowed like a field,
and Jerusalem reduced to rubble,
And the mount of the temple
to a forest ridge.
"The pre tribulation rapture is non-biblical and non-Christian Catholic[?]."
When the catching up (some call it The Rapture ) happens, grab ahold of something rooted firmly in the earth and you may avoid it.
Taking the mark will work quite well if you really want to stick around.
But the Body of Christ will be gone.
Trivia questions:
Was Jesus the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world?
Or was He slain on the cross?
Not interested in your opinion, the wall of text is unreadable-boring except perhaps to your followers.
You are welcome to it of course, but I’ll stick with the pure Christian Holy Spirit version.
I prefer the simple Biblical Christian personal relationship with Jesus, the Living Word, foundation.
Please, no more intellectual superfluous walls of text.
Yes, many will be surprised when they get caught up with the rest of us.
Their intellectualizing won’t change God’s plan.
See you on the way up, if not before.
[See you on the way up, if not before.]
Absolutely!
God bless!
Ok, you want it simple, here you go
the pre-tribulation rapture is non-Biblical
The Millenium is a spiritual reign of Christ that has been present in the community of Christ since Pentecost.
That is the pure Christian belief and has been for the past 2000 years.
Jesus told us to repent, believe, be baptized, eat of His body and endure to the end as we endure to the end.
The dead end of being magically whisked away in the pre tribulation rapture is contrary to Jesus’s teachings
God didn’t ordain the pre tribulation rapture. That is why that pre tribulation rapture, is not in the Bible and no Christian believed it before Darby’s 19th century philosophy.
Jesus is the fulfilment of Daniel's visions, and the church (comprising of both Jews and Gentiles) is the rock that became a mountain that encompasses the world
Lol, I get it straight from Jesus, no thank you to your version.
Oh, and stop with the name calling and attempts at shoving ppl into your little boxes.
“Rapturists”
and cograts on the use of the big words, which only confuse the issue.
We’re done here, in case you didn’t notice.
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