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1 posted on 08/24/2002 1:26:21 PM PDT by happytobealive
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To: happytobealive
First fags, and pedophiles, now baby killing supporters. I am so proud of the catholics.
Organized religion, ain't it great?
2 posted on 08/24/2002 1:34:24 PM PDT by Joe Boucher
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To: happytobealive
He is quite correct. If one is forced to obey, then there is no virtue in obeying. All of life is choices.
3 posted on 08/24/2002 1:35:41 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: *SASU; JMJ333; Tourist Guy; EODGUY; abandon; Khepera; Dakmar; RichInOC; RebelDawg; Fiddlstix; ...
Is that right?
5 posted on 08/24/2002 1:37:06 PM PDT by Khepera
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To: happytobealive
Wonderful example of word gamesmanship. Of course, freedom of choice is simply another terminology for the free will, which is an important principle in all Western Theology.

But the Priest is being disingenuous in the extreme. For the Abortionists are not contending that the Choice they advocate is between good and evil. They have gone to great lengths to remove not only legal sanctions against the choice to kill your baby. They have gone to equal lengths to make that choice seem perfectly acceptable morally.

It is also a choice whether to steal from the collection plate or not. Everything this Priest says about Abortion, would equally apply there--as it would to Murder, Rape, Robbery, etc..

As a non-Catholic, I have no right to protest dissembling in the Church. This comment is intended to go only to the logic of the Priest's contentions--not to his right voice them.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

6 posted on 08/24/2002 1:39:57 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: happytobealive
The Lord God has created all people in absolute freedom. Every action we take, each word we utter, is a matter of choice.

Oh, I see. So as a Catholic in good standing I can favor one having the "choice" to torture small animals, never go to mass, and rob banks? The intellectual contortions of the pro-abortionists never cease to amaze me.

I, like every living Christian, am a sinner. I don't tithe enough. I curse. I have lustful thoughts. But I don't rationalize that my sins are anything but sins.

Henry Hyde had it right when he was on the House floor debating the partial birth abortion ban. He said the abortion lobby's stock and trade is the euphemism. And, to quote directly, "The queen mother of all euphemisms is choice! As if you're making the decision between chocolate and vanilla instead of between a live baby and a dead baby!"

8 posted on 08/24/2002 1:42:22 PM PDT by winin2000
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To: happytobealive
I do not think the issue is so much "freedom of choice" as it is freedom from the circumstances of that choice.

Many want poor or "evil" choices to be free of judgement or onerous consequences.

9 posted on 08/24/2002 1:42:48 PM PDT by Jagdgewehr
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To: happytobealive
Jesus also said that if you love me you will keep my commandments. eg though shalt not kill (murder). God calls those who say they love him to show it in obedience.

God Bless,

Mel

13 posted on 08/24/2002 1:45:59 PM PDT by melsec
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To: happytobealive
Further evidence of idiots in the priesthood who don't know the character of Christ from free will.

Christ would NEVER abort a baby, period dot. He would never give that example to us. Free will, OTOH, is Christ sitting back and watching you make such a decision then being there to see you through your mistakes or sitting in judgement on you for denying it was wrong.

That is a choice, but not in the sense that people like this priest make it out to be.
14 posted on 08/24/2002 1:46:07 PM PDT by ICE-FLYER
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To: happytobealive
First fags, and pedophiles, now baby killing supporters. I am so proud of the catholics. Organized religion, ain't it great?

Why are you suprised? The catholic church is filled with all sorts of rejects.
15 posted on 08/24/2002 1:47:06 PM PDT by Brush_Your_Teeth
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To: happytobealive
He can twist Christianity like a snake can't he? Yeah your free to choose, your free to go to hades also. Rely on your conscience? What nonsense. Your conscience will excuse you anything you want to do. I had rather rely on commandments.
16 posted on 08/24/2002 1:48:56 PM PDT by MissAmericanPie
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To: happytobealive
Within ten years, Catholic doctrine will be virtually indistinguishable from from the Democrat Party platform.

Being aginst abortion is one of the few remaining differences. That will eventually dissolve, as other differences have.

17 posted on 08/24/2002 1:50:35 PM PDT by Mr. Bungle
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To: happytobealive
This priest has it desperately wrong.

Free Will gives freedom to sin. It doesn't mean God approves of sin even though He granted the Free Will.

Pro-Choice = Pro-Murder! - despite the Free Will.

The last I checked, Jesus was against murder. Somehow, I can't see Him standing there in his surgical mask with a scalpel, forceps and a suction-machine ripping a baby from a womb!

But then, I'm not a Theological Liberal trying to justify my own version of sin.

18 posted on 08/24/2002 1:51:57 PM PDT by Gritty
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To: happytobealive
This priest is a moron!

God gave us free will. That does not mean that God gives us freedom to chose whatever evil, whatever depravity we wish without consequence.

He tries to draw a distinction between being “pro-choice” and being “pro-abortion.” This is sophmoric. In the modern parlance, “pro-choice” is very definitely “pro-abortion.” All the “pro-choice” groups fight tooth and nail against requiring family-planning centers to inform mothers of alternatives to abortion, or requirements for parental consent.

Even regarding “pro choice”, as he tries to, as simply an endorsement of our God-given personal liberty... murdering born children does not fall within the ambit of liberty, so how does a Catholic priest conclude that murdering unborn children does?

21 posted on 08/24/2002 2:13:36 PM PDT by ChuxsterS
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To: happytobealive
The Lord God has created all people in absolute freedom. Every action we take, each word we utter, is a matter of choice. As Catholic Christians we understand that this Awesome freedom carries with it a grave responsibility.

Does this include the "freedom" to commit murder, adultry, polytheism, theft, etc.?

Hate the sin but love the sinner. It does not mean condoning such an act.

22 posted on 08/24/2002 2:28:33 PM PDT by weegee
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To: happytobealive
1 word: SPIN
24 posted on 08/24/2002 2:29:56 PM PDT by weegee
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To: happytobealive
Isn't it wonderful how liberals will twist logic into a pretzel to support their views?
Apparently, even Catholic priests aren't immune to this liberal disease.
Whoops, wait a minute! I'm talking about the group that's giving pedophiles a bad name!
26 posted on 08/24/2002 2:33:43 PM PDT by Redbob
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To: happytobealive
Well, he certainly brings up an interesting argument. Personally, I think I'm in a minority in my belief that choice is fairly limited. I can't remember where it says this, but somewhere in the Bible it says that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.
28 posted on 08/24/2002 2:38:07 PM PDT by Sally II
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To: happytobealive
By that logic, it is wrong to criticize someone for exercising his God-given free choice to do ANYTHING. My creator has given me the freedom to eat gravel or burn down a church. How intolerant of someone to object.

Did this fellow make it through divinity school with the inability to think a simple, linear thought? Or is he consciously obscuring the argument to bolster his politcal position, taken for personal reasons? I vote for the former, he's dumb, not evil.
30 posted on 08/24/2002 2:44:44 PM PDT by SupplySider
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To: happytobealive
An excerpt from The Catholic Encyclopedia Volume I

Here

It is evident that the determination of what is right or wrong in human conduct belongs to the science of ethics and the teaching of religious authority. Both of these declare the Divine law, "Thou shalt not kill". The embryonic child, as seen above, has a human soul; and therefore is a man from the time of its conception; therefore it has an equal right to its life with its mother; therefore neither the mother, nor medical practitioner, nor any human being whatever can lawfully take that life away. The State cannot give such right to the physician; for it has not itself the right to put an innocent person to death. No matter how desirable it might seem to be at times to save the life of the mother, common sense teaches and all nations accept the maxim, that "evil is never to be done that good may come of it"; or, which is the same thing, that "a good end cannot justify a bad means". Now it is an evil means to destroy the life of an innocent child. The plea cannot be made that the child is an unjust aggressor. It is simply where nature and its own parents have put it. Therefore, Natural Law forbids any attempt at destroying fetal life.

As to the penalties she inflicts upon the guilty parties, her present legislation was fixed by the Bull of Pius IX "Apostolicae Sedis". It decrees excommunication -- that is, deprivation of the Sacraments and of the Prayers of the Church in the case of any of her members, and other privations besides in the case of clergymen -- against all who seek to procure abortion, if their action produces the effect.

I bet this priest is a member of a dissident group at odds with official teachings... one of the pick and choose types.

31 posted on 08/24/2002 2:48:49 PM PDT by VetoBill
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To: happytobealive
Fr. Doc Ortman was a runner-up MORON OF THE MONTH a few days ago on the DFU Radio Hour. He must be excommunicated now along with the Sister.
44 posted on 08/24/2002 3:14:28 PM PDT by doug from upland
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