Misunderstanding The Prehistoric Southwest: What Happened At Chaco?

AScribe ^ | 2-17-2003

[wolfcreek]

Be sure and check out Bandelier (near Los Alamos, NM.)

http://www.nps.gov/band/index.htm

[Ripliancum]

Thumbs up!!

I would consider myself slothful if I didn't include this one.

[headsonpikes]

All of us are descended from the successful murderous cannibals of the past.

This fact ought to be humbling - I am troubled that few seem to either acknowledge or care about this fact.

[Monkey Face]

What amazes me is not that the Americas had cannibals but that archeologists were so arrogant as to dismiss the first indications of the practice.

It boggles the mind. What else do they have the Ostrich Syndrome about?

[Flag_This]

"Here's another that shows the mixed races in ancient american cannibalism."

Not necessarily - that could be interpreted as depicting a priest that is wearing body paint. I have even heard accounts of the Aztec priests being completely covered in dried blood.

[Ripliancum]

So the post in #34 that shows both dark and light skinned natives eating a light skinned dude is all paint as well?

Ostrich syndrome is indeed a good word for it.

[Flag_This]

"So the post in #34 that shows both dark and light skinned natives eating a light skinned dude is all paint as well?"

Neither of us know what it depicts. Here's a possibility: maybe the Aztec artists used different skin tones to indicate different social classes, functions, tribes or whatever.

[pabianice]

Isn’t anthropology cool?

[blam]

Kuelap - The Machu Picchu Of Northern Peru (Chachapoyas - White, blonde haired people)

"Inca chronicles and legends persist that the Cloud People were tall fair (skin and hair) warriors. This is reinforced by an unusually large proportion of blond, fair natives in this zone who know of no European ancestry."

2004: Top (Archaeological) Finds On Bolivian Highlands

[Monkey Face]

I’m not in the least bit surprised. Thanks for the links. They are quite informative!

[Flag_This]

I have no doubt that different people from all over the world reached north, central and south america at different times in the past. People have rowed across the Atlantic in small open boats in modern times. The bigger question is: what cultural impact (if any) did these incidents have on the local populations?

We know the vikings reached Newfoundland, but that contact apparently left no lasting impression on the native populations. I wouldn't be surprised if that was a common result elsewhere.

[Ripliancum]

Fortunately, we do know, because we have the testimony of the Conquistadors who described the different races.

Here's just one, there are plenty more.

In 1527 Pizarro, the Spanish conquistador in Peru, found the Inca rulers to be tall, bearded, “corn blonde” and “whiter than the people of Spain”.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Obgdz8auwkMC&pg=PA37&lpg=PA37&dq=Pizarro+%22corn+blonde%22&source=bl&ots=c4aRzUv510&sig=lOtqnvcFEz1lSdWuYX7yCSMthys&hl=en&ei=fzjgTPqZGI28sAOOvajICg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Pizarro%20%22corn%20blonde%22&f=false

[Ripliancum]

Thanks, great link.

[Flag_This]

"Fortunately, we do know, because we have the testimony of the Conquistadors who described the different races."

I'm sorry... I thought we were discussing your definitive interpretation of an Aztec painting from Mexico, not the assumed race of Atahualpa in Peru.

[blam]

Vintage Skulls

"Of additional significance is the shape of the skulls, which are described as long and narrow, very unlike those of modern Native Americans.

[Smokin' Joe]

With the advent of "Common Era" dating, I think we have seen all our religions fade into myth in their eyes. They didn't have any problem hacking open the lead-lined coffin of one of my well-preserved ancestors and displaying her remains on TV, either, making it evident that she was in fact, a she in the process.

There is a point where respect for the dead and the religion of the people who are buried there should kick in and deem at least a sense of decency about things, but the disrespect is not confined to any one group of people's ancestors, whether their religion be one of the Native Religions or Christian or otherwise.

[Ripliancum]

Actually, we were talking about natives, not Aztecs, Incas, or anything specific. But if it makes any difference to you, Pizzaro wasn't the only Conquistador mentioning white skinned natives. The main reason Cortez had such an easy time among the Aztecs, is that they were expecting the return of their fair skinned blonde ruler Quetzalcoatl.

And for the record, Atahualpa wasn't a race, he was the last ruler of the Inca. He was descended from the Virachocha, a fair skinned ancient race, well before the inca empire.

[Flag_This]

"Actually, we were talking about natives, not Aztecs, Incas, or anything specific. "

Actually we were talking about this specific comment by you about a specific painting: "Here's another that shows the mixed races in ancient american cannibalism"

To which, I replied there could be many reasons for the different skin tones in that Aztec painting not just race. Your response to that was to compare disagreement with you as head-in-the-sand syndrome. The bottom line: you have no idea what they were attempting to depict in that painting. None. You do have your opinion and you're welcome to it.

"Pizzaro wasn't the only Conquistador mentioning white skinned natives."

The conquistadors mentioned a lot of things: Amazon women archers in the jungle, white-skinned natives, fountains of youth, seven golden cities, and an entire freakin' encyclopedia of monsters. Sadly, no one can find evidence of any of these things. Which accounts do you accept at face value and which accounts do you reject?

"The main reason Cortez had such an easy time among the Aztecs, is that they were expecting the return of their fair skinned blonde ruler Quetzalcoatl."

Yeah, look up "La Noche Triste" and talk to me about his "easy time." Cortez ultimately won because the Aztecs' neighbors hated their guts. He would have been dead meat without the aid and support of the Tlaxcalans.

"And for the record, Atahualpa wasn't a race, he was the last ruler of the Inca. He was descended from the Virachocha, a fair skinned ancient race, well before the inca empire."

I know who Atahualpa was - that's why I brought him up. How did the Inca rulers manage to keep their race apart from the rest of the population in Peru? In other words: "where da white wimmen at?"

P.S. "Inca" was the title of the ruler, not the general population... and the last Inca was Túpac Amaru.

[ValerieTexas]

"I think there may have been some serious policing with 'goon squads' in the Chacoan region about the time the Chaco Empire was collapsing, and some serious slicing and dicing began as local warfare broke out," said Lekson.
"Toward the end, there may have been policing in the Chacoan region in an attempt to maintain order. But when Chaco was collapsing, some serious violence and warfare broke out," he said. "Chaco could no longer control its region."

serieslee?

[wardaddy]

sounds like Mayan decadence and excess