Posted on 03/23/2005 6:39:05 AM PST by arrogantduck
What do you when 3000 persons respond to a sermon and want to be immersed in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins? What do you do when this number of 3000 is added to daily?...
Thank you for your contribution to Free Republic. I pray the Lord guides you into "all Truth".
Lea
IMO salvation occurs the moment you believe Jesus is the Son of God, accept him as your savior, and repent of your sins. Then you must act on your faith and be baptized or your “faith” would be revealed as null and void (never really existed) and you would still be in your sins.
Faith without works is dead (doesn't really exist). But faith is what saves us, not works; works are just a confirmation of our faith.
Again, in 1 Peter 3:21 we see the comparison of the saving of Noah and his family from the flood by his obedient faith that an individual who obeys the gospel through obedient faith is saved through baptism. "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
And, to wrap up, Nicodemus comes to Jesus at night to learn from Him. Jesus in that discussion tells Nicodemus that he must be "born again" of the water and the Spirit. We are born physically and begin to die physically at the very moment of birth. The only hope a man has of immortality (in the right place -- Heaven) is to be "born again". If (s)he fellows the teaching in the New Testament as seen in Romans 6 (s)he will see that a faith based obedience to baptism "buries" one in Christ to raise up a new man, thus a spiritual rebirth from death to life, the only way to have a hope of living eternally after this physical life is over. Thus, one is born spiritually to live forever, overcoming the physical birth to death pattern on the chart. Hope that helps.
The thief is a "litmus test" of what's required for salvation.
The classic double-edged sword.... However, I think God, in His mercy, looks kindly on those who make a good-faith effort.
"You should ask him his thoughts on "death bed confessions".
If he has had one of these, ask him if he told them they were not saved."
So God can't save someone who makes a death bed confession? I thought God desires to save all men. Would you consider the thief on the cross's proclamation a "death bed confession"?
Regards
Excellent.
Baptism is a fundemental doctrine of the church:
Heb 6:1,2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Under normal circumstances baptism is followed by the laying on of hands of church elders (another fundemental doctrine)which imparts God's spirit:
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery
Above Paul describe HOW Timothy got the gift of God, the Holy spirit.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Above is an example of people who were baptized, but not in the name of Christ. They didn't get God's spirit until Paul laid hands on them and asked God to give it to them.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Another example above. Simon saw how the Holy Ghost was given and tried to buy the power.
There are extraordinary occurrences where people get God's spirit WITHOUT having hands laid on them...but it only happened with the original jewish converts (Acts 2) and with the original gentile converts (Acts 10).
So I would say that if one hasn't been baptized then they have not obeyed God's instructions for receiving the holy spirit. That's not to say that everyone baptized and having hands laid on them DOES have God's spirit though.
"The thief is a "litmus test" of what's required for salvation"
Hardly. It shows the mercy of God. Otherwise, what about all of that preaching about obedience to God in the Gospels? The thief is not the rule, but rather an exception that God makes while in agony on the Cross.
Regards
"John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever beleives in Him will not perish but have everlasting life.
No mention of Baptism for everlasting life? None and this is Jesus speaking. If Baptism was the prerequisite for it, dont you think He would have mentioned it."
He does. But why does Jesus need to repeat all of His teachings at every point and juncture? How about John 6? Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you shall not have eternal life? No mention about Baptism there, either. We take Scripture in its entirety, not pick and choose and ignore those we don't like. We are to follow ALL of Jesus' teachings.
Regards
So before Christ people made it all the way to heaven apart from Christ? Well, I guess that some RC's believe that people can make it to heaven today apart from Christ but by works. So I guess it makes sense that you would believe that of OT times too.
The thief was under the old law. Anyway, Jesus - being God - can do whatever he wants in the way of forgiving sins. What he asks us to do to be forgiven is another matter.
Do you really think Jesus Christ was unaware when He appointed Judas Iscariot that he would be the one to betray Him to the Romans for the purpose of His appointed suffering and death on the cross? For that matter, when do you think He figured out Isaiah 53 (for example) was all about Him and His appointment with the cross?
You did not answer my question. Why didn't Peter tell those in Acts 2 that they needed to do nothing else since they already believed that Jesus was the Son of God?
He never told them that they were already saved, and that baptism is simply a sign of their belief. Also, if not getting baptized is an act of disobedience, then your idea of salvation by faith only means that someone can be saved while being disobedient to God. That is in direct contradiction to the teachings of Christ.
And yes, I believe someone can be saved making a "death bed confession"! Thus ruling out the idea you must have a water immersion baptism to be saved.
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