As I understand it, we are baptized with the Holy Spirit at the moment we believe. Water baptism is an outward sort of proclamation which happens afterwards, and is not required for salvation.
I suspect you all also believe you can lose your salvation too. A good friend of mine went to a Church of Christ and that was something they believed.
The human rituals are always more important than the spiritual salvation...especially when one can collect hard cash for performing the rituals. ;)
Well, baptism is a "act" or "deed" or "work" and your statement can be interpreted that this "act" is a requirement of salvation which strikes me as taking away from the glory and sacrifice of Jesus.
There is the spiritual world, and the physical world.
In the spiritual world, a man receives salvation.
In the physical world, he is baptised.
There is no causal relation between the two worlds, only the assurance that God, who is author of all things, has accomplished both. Nothing we do CAUSES God's grace, but our desire and ability to act as he commands us is a sign of his grace.
The baptism is not the cause of the man receiving salvation, but it is a sign that he is receiving it. Absent that sign, his slavation is not assured. But it can happen, as was demonstrated by the incident of the thief on the cross.
So, therefore:
A deliberately insincere baptism is a desecration, a mockery of a divine sign; it does not bring grace.
Salvation can occur without the sign of baptism, when the means of baptism are not available. But if a person claims to be saved while refusing a sign that God promises to us, what are we to make of his claim? He is either a liar or he is deluded. In any event, his claim is untrue, and is a work of Satan.
Baptism is not the completion of the work of sanctification, however, it is closer to the beginning.
Baptism is a covenant. After you made the covenant with God, then the determination of Salvation begins, and its a lifelong one.
In other words, one gets baptised to promise obedience to God.
Once we are standing at the judgement God will see all our works and say "you tried your best to keep your end of the bargain...so welcome in my friend"...
If one gets baptised but never picks up a bible again, but rather goes and picks up a 12 pack every friday and heads to the bar and cheats on his wife etc etc...whole different story.
I am sure there are exceptions, but they are few and far in between.
For the rest of us, we hope for salvation, not tout it like we already got it.
I am sure there are exceptions, but they are few and far in between.
For the rest of us, we hope for salvation, not tout it like we already got it.
You should ask him his thoughts on "death bed confessions".
If he has had one of these, ask him if he told them they were not saved.
IMO salvation occurs the moment you believe Jesus is the Son of God, accept him as your savior, and repent of your sins. Then you must act on your faith and be baptized or your “faith” would be revealed as null and void (never really existed) and you would still be in your sins.
Faith without works is dead (doesn't really exist). But faith is what saves us, not works; works are just a confirmation of our faith.
Again, in 1 Peter 3:21 we see the comparison of the saving of Noah and his family from the flood by his obedient faith that an individual who obeys the gospel through obedient faith is saved through baptism. "Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"
And, to wrap up, Nicodemus comes to Jesus at night to learn from Him. Jesus in that discussion tells Nicodemus that he must be "born again" of the water and the Spirit. We are born physically and begin to die physically at the very moment of birth. The only hope a man has of immortality (in the right place -- Heaven) is to be "born again". If (s)he fellows the teaching in the New Testament as seen in Romans 6 (s)he will see that a faith based obedience to baptism "buries" one in Christ to raise up a new man, thus a spiritual rebirth from death to life, the only way to have a hope of living eternally after this physical life is over. Thus, one is born spiritually to live forever, overcoming the physical birth to death pattern on the chart. Hope that helps.
Baptism is a fundemental doctrine of the church:
Heb 6:1,2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Under normal circumstances baptism is followed by the laying on of hands of church elders (another fundemental doctrine)which imparts God's spirit:
2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery
Above Paul describe HOW Timothy got the gift of God, the Holy spirit.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Above is an example of people who were baptized, but not in the name of Christ. They didn't get God's spirit until Paul laid hands on them and asked God to give it to them.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Another example above. Simon saw how the Holy Ghost was given and tried to buy the power.
There are extraordinary occurrences where people get God's spirit WITHOUT having hands laid on them...but it only happened with the original jewish converts (Acts 2) and with the original gentile converts (Acts 10).
So I would say that if one hasn't been baptized then they have not obeyed God's instructions for receiving the holy spirit. That's not to say that everyone baptized and having hands laid on them DOES have God's spirit though.
"Now when they ["Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven", v. 5] heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2)
In response to the question "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Paul told the (gentile) Philippian jailer, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household." {No mention of baptism in Paul's response.}
A dispensationalist might say that repentance and baptism are kingdom requirements, while grace/faith are church age requirements.
Of course that answer would be wrong, but you could try it.
The fact is that men in the Bible were saved prior to being baptized with water.
"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days." (Acts 10:44ff)
Was it the water that saved them, or the indwelling Holy Spirit? Baptism was the outward sign and seal of God's saving grace that brought faith and salvation to the believer.
" They believe that salvation comes before baptism and that baptism is nessecary only for the gift of the Holy Spirit. "
What says the scripture?
Concerning gifts of the Holy Spirit..."These signs shall FOLLOW them that believe..."MARK 16
Yet...
Cornelius received the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was baptized.
Yet PAUL said...
"For Christ sent me NOT to baptize but to Preach the word..."
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved!
If you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is LORD and believe in your heart that GOD has raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED!
Nuf said.
Interesting topic. I was raised Baptist and had always been taught that salvation did not include baptism, but was just the outward sign that you had accepted Christ. As I read the scriptures over and over I begin to wonder if that is really the case. Sometimes we just believe what we are taught by the particular denomination or religion we align ourselves with.