Posted on 10/31/2008 8:15:05 AM PDT by Gamecock
That’s answering a question with a question, but it doesn’t matter what Paul said. Paul’s epistles are the inspired word of God, not the word of God handed direct to some Arab or New Yorker directly by an angel. If you are Catholic, you believe God’s truths come through the Scripture...and the traditions.
Do you say we are saved by faith alone?
And I always thought that the Bible was objective truth. Where else should I go for truth?
Of course, if your "conscious" told you that the Catholics were right
The continued study of God's word will always lead to truth. Other than yourself, I doubt anyone was born with complete knowledge of God's word. As we study God's Word and seak the truth, we grow spiritually. For the record, although I do not understand all of what Catholics believe, I am knowledgable enough to know that much of it's teachings attempt to keep mankind under a certain level of control.
Some of the alphabet Lutheran sects are more closely aligned with the UCC. Some others may be regional in nature but orthodox in belief. As a Catholic I will say I always admired the Mo. Synod because they cling to their beliefs about God, faith, sin, salvation, everything, and are not all wobbly about morals like some churches.
“” For the record, although I do not understand all of what Catholics believe, I am knowledgable enough to know that much of it’s teachings attempt to keep mankind under a certain level of control.””
From Vatican II
http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_cons_19651207_gaudium-et-spes_en.html
“” Only in freedom can man direct himself toward goodness. Our contemporaries make much of this freedom and pursue it eagerly; and rightly to be sure. Often however they foster it perversely as a license for doing whatever pleases them, even if it is evil. For its part, authentic freedom is an exceptional sign of the divine image within man. For God has willed that man remain “under the control of his own decisions,”(12) so that he can seek his Creator spontaneously, and come freely to utter and blissful perfection through loyalty to Him. Hence man’s dignity demands that he act according to a knowing and free choice that is personally motivated and prompted from within, not under blind internal impulse nor by mere external pressure. Man achieves such dignity when, emancipating himself from all captivity to passion, he pursues his goal in a spontaneous choice of what is good, and procures for himself through effective and skilful action, apt helps to that end. Since man’s freedom has been damaged by sin, only by the aid of God’s grace can he bring such a relationship with God into full flower. Before the judgement seat of God each man must render an account of his own life, whether he has done good or evil.
Does this sound like control to you?
The Church gives us the teaching on faith and morals and other things related to our faith.
It is up to us to FREELY follow them.If we do we will lead a holy life
No. Prior to Luther, however, the Papacy was concerned with maintaining a certain level of control. I guess that Luther had some impact on the Catholic church.
Prior to Luther and to this day the Church speaks out and teaches against heresies and heretics.
An example was the Arians who denied the Divinity of Christ around the time that Bible Canon was taking place.
The reformation opened the door for the re emergment of such movements like JW's and others who deny Christ's divinity by using the method of solo scripture self interpretation. None of this grew out of Catholicism
***My suggestion would be to read the Bible and determine which church, be it Lutheran or other, best fits your beliefs.***
Are you saying that Protestant man creates God in his own image?
***The continued study of God’s word will always lead to truth. Other than yourself, I doubt anyone was born with complete knowledge of God’s word. As we study God’s Word and seak the truth, we grow spiritually. For the record, although I do not understand all of what Catholics believe, I am knowledgable enough to know that much of it’s teachings attempt to keep mankind under a certain level of control.***
There is so much in this statement that is objectively incorrect. Not all who study God’s Word grow spiritually. I know some in personal life; public examples might be Jimmy Swaggart or Jim Bakker.
The LDS study Scripture as a group better than most Christians.
I am happy to see that you do recognize the Catholic Church as the Christian one, though.
I don’t remember what I wrote, but I say that Luther was right to rock our church and its practices at that time. I don’t buy Lutheranism. But I definitely feel that the prelates, holy men, priests, bishops, cardinals and pope of the Catholic church itself, both politically and spiritually at that time, brought about the reformation by its on practices.
We haven’t always had wise and holy souls leading us.
Thank you for the references. I will read them. I did study the reformation in depth, years and years ago. Never read Belloc. I was a history major and took every course I could on that period. It was absolutely fascinating.
I go back to St. Augustine, who differentiated the visible church from the invisible church. The invisible church is Christ's true church.
Yes. I used to have a copy around here somewhere.
Excellent. I can see some of the line of thinking in that book in your posts. :-)
Perhaps he’s arguing that if Luther hadn’t brought us the reformation, we’d still have slavery.
If there had been no Luther, there probably would be no Obama.
How so?
England remains a backwater, no English diaspora, no United State, and everybody in the West darker than eurostandard is a slave in Nueva Espania.
Happy Jenny Geddes day.
You wrote:
“Perhaps he’s arguing that if Luther hadn’t brought us the reformation, we’d still have slavery.”
No. Luther was not known for anti-slavery/abolitionist sentiment.
You wrote:
“How so?”
You might want to start reading history. Especially start reading about the connection between the so-called Reformation and materialism.
“England remains a backwater, no English diaspora, no United State, and everybody in the West darker than eurostandard is a slave in Nueva Espania.”
Uh, hate to tell you, but England became a backwater culturally AFTER the “Reformation” as even Protestants like Ralph Adams Cram admitted. And although I love the United States, I do not think it changes the history that came before it, or that its existence is proof of the validity of the “Reformation”. Also, there is no reason to think slavery would have survived in the New World any longer than it did. The US kept slaves until 1865. Brazil did so until 1888 if I remember correctly. A 23 year difference. So what? And Brazil got rid of slavery without having to fight a Civil War over it. Apparently the less than white slave owners of Brazil were far more civilized about getting rid of slavery than the ultra white (not really) slave owners in the USA. This country is great, but not perfect. Luther may have been a great and influential man, but was far from a good one.
I would not want to imagine where we would be had it not been for Luther’s lighting the fire for reformation. The smell of the inquisition is still is a fragrance not that far away. The reformation is a continual process and must always be. The temptation for men to “be like God” is much to strong for complacency.
Seems like that, doesn't it? If you'd like an honest answer, I'll be happy to try to provide one. OTOH, if you were just trying to poke a stick into a hornets nest to see if you could get any hornets all riled up, let me know.
***I am happy to see that you do recognize the Catholic Church as the Christian one, though.
I go back to St. Augustine, who differentiated the visible church from the invisible church. The invisible church is Christ’s true church.***
St Augustine says that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church. My tagline is a quote from him.
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1401.htm is a translation of his “Of the Morals of the Catholic Church”.
You may be interested in:
Chapter 18.— Only in the Catholic Church is Perfect Truth Established on the Harmony of Both Testaments
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