Posted on 12/20/2010 10:32:51 AM PST by truthfinder9
Try the main link, SB.
That's about it, whatever human mind makes God out to be. But none will tell you what God is, what is divine. I am personally not against God (how can I be, given that I don't know what God is or if he is?), but the only gods I do know of are man-made.
IF history shows us anything it shows us that is absolutely not true - we continuially fail to treat others as we would like to be treated. Constantly. The fact we intuitively acknowledge the righteousness of this standard none of consistently can or do live up to, a standard which cannot be proved rationally; a standard nobody imposes morally on any other "animal" but humans; is, for me, a very persuasive proof of the existance of God.
In which case it is a meaningless term. There is only social convenience and personal preference. And no given individual is bound by either. IN this case there is not rational reason for being "good" other than the fear of punishment. If this is true then there are only two commandments (1) Do as thou wilt; and (2) don't get caught. If this is true than there is no objective basis for saying HItler was "bad" or "evil".
..and what standard of measure do you use that what you are projecting is indeed love?..Loyalty?..Decency?...Respect?
Define good.
That's easy. I define God as that being possessing the traits revealed in Christian scripture.
It's undeniable that societies in which Jewish or Christian values are internalized have generally been better to live in than societies where those values have been held in contempt. You'll get no argument from me on that, I'd far rather live in Tel Aviv than in Pyongyang.
I can certainly evaluate two moral codes based upon their track records in maintaining human liberty and dignity, and find one superior to another without automatically concluding that the superiority is evidence of divine origin.
One can do both. Now who's being close minded. Note I rejected Kant's conceptual application of the catagorical imperative but that doesn't mean I'm so close minded that I refuse to hear him out on what he has to say.
Like I said in post 58, forget about your philosophy major you took in college.You are speaking out of a textbook. Get some real life experience.Stop off and have a beer or two at your local ice house, play the jukebox, shoot a game of pool and get to know some country boys and buy that red head at the bar a drink.Learn what it means to make a deal on a handshake, that when you say somethin you mean what you say. Go catch a fish and tell him thank you when you either eat him or turn him loose.Go to someones aid with no expectation of anything in return. Learn these things and put the books back on the shelf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dx7irFN2gdI
Good movie, even if you aren't a believer.
Because leftist atheists envy the faith advantages religious people have and want to destroy them. Atheists are aware that religious people in general have real advantages in optimism, success, health, life span, family, and happiness. No fair! They must spoil these advantages, destroy them if they can. Their motive is evil.
What “proof” would you require to conlude truth is or not? and what would be your measure either way?
What does any of this have to do with an objective basis for right and wrong? This is nothing to do with the question, it's just the stuff you personally like to do. I've done all of it too. YOu are merely saying whatever makes you feel good is what is right. On that basis why not just steal cars and kill people if it makes me feel good. That would be just as "right" as the stuff you posit.
That's when the Principle of Reciprocity comes with its Karmic returns.
I’ve seen that movie, it avoids Christian scripture rather than answer. The issue of why a good God would let bad things happen has been addressed many, many times. I think Chesterton and C.S. Lewis give the best written replies.
If one is willing to take that chance why not. Again, prove with your reason and scientific method this karmic principle of reciprocity.
No you see there you are wrong in your thinking.You are trying to analyze by some one Else's thinking.You know in your heart it is wrong to steal-You know it is wrong to kill without good reason. In some societies though, it is okay to steal if that is your profession.but not all people in that society steal.You are living a book mentality, you are letting someone else tell you how to behave. You are a slave to your education. Where is your free will? Free will is having the ability to take someones life or possessions, but, not doing it because you know it's wrong, not because somebody said it was wrong.Free will, we all have it and we are responsible for our action to society and our conciouns.
But I've never put down one of those books and said to myself, "Yes, that nails it. Christianity is true".
I expect that if God exists, He will either someday reveal himself to me, or, He won't.
The advantages that come off of being part of a social structure far, far outweigh those of solitary existence. Since that social structure is so crucial to mankind's advancement, what would you expect when the glue that holds it together - which is the principle of reciprocity - breaks down?
If stealing, lying and violence were allowed, it not only ends up breaking society apart, but the consequences will spill onto the descendants of the person committing the crimes from suffering the ills of a broken society, directly affecting that individual's evolutionary trajectory, sufficiently providing an incentive strong enough to ensure a minimum level of social stability for the species to thrive. This is why the Golden Rule has arisen amongst disparate cultures all over the world. The Chinese and the Indians have had versions that are aeons older than those from any other society.
The Bhagavad-Gita.
Chapter XII
LORD! of the men who serve Thee—true in heart—
As God revealed; and of the men who serve,
Worshipping Thee Unrevealed, Unbodied, far,
Which take the better way of faith and life?
Whoever serve Me—as I show Myself— 5
Constantly true, in full devotion fixed,
These hold I very holy. But who serve—
Worshipping Me The One, The Invisible,
The Unrevealed, Unnamed, Unthinkable,
Uttermost, All-pervading, Highest, Sure—
10
Who thus adore Me, mastering their sense,
Of one set mind to all, glad in all good,
These blessed souls come unto Me.
Yet, hard
The travail is for whoso bend their minds
15
To reach th’ Unmanifest. That viewless path
Shall scarce be trod by man bearing his flesh!
But whereso any doeth all his deeds,
Renouncing self in Me, full of Me, fixed
To serve only the Highest, night and day
20
Musing on Me—him will I swiftly lift
Forth from life’s ocean of distress and death
Whose soul clings fast to Me. Cling thou to Me!
Clasp Me with heart and mind! so shalt thou dwell
Surely with Me on high. But if thy thought
25
Droops from such height; if thou be’st weak to set
Body and soul upon Me constantly,
Despair not! give Me lower service! seek
To read Me, worshipping with steadfast will;
And, if thou canst not worship steadfastly,
30
Work for Me, toil in works pleasing to Me!
For he that laboreth right for love of Me
Shall finally attain! But, if in this
Thy faint heart fails, bring Me thy failure! find
Refuge in Me! let fruits of labor go,
35
Renouncing all for Me, with lowliest heart,
So shalt thou come; for, though to know is more
Than diligence, yet worship better is
Than knowing, and renouncing better still
Near to renunciation—very near—
40
Dwelleth Eternal Peace!
Who hateth nought
Of all which lives, living himself benign,
Compassionate, from arrogance exempt,
Exempt from love of self, unchangeable
45
By good or ill; patient, contented, firm
In faith, mastering himself, true to his word,
Seeking Me, heart and soul; vowed unto Me,—
That man I love! Who troubleth not his kind,
And is not troubled by them; clear of wrath,
50
Living too high for gladness, grief, or fear,
That man I love!
Who, dwelling quiet-eyed,
Stainless, serene, well-balanced, unperplexed,
Working with Me, yet from all works detached,
That man I love!
Who, fixed in faith on Me, 55
Dotes upon none, scorns none; rejoices not,
And grieves not, letting good and evil hap
Light when it will, and when it will depart,
That man I love!
Who, unto friend and foe
Keeping an equal heart, with equal mind
60
Bears shame and glory, with an equal peace
Takes heat and cold, pleasure and pain; abides
Quit of desires, hears praise or calumny
In passionless restraint, unmoved by each,
Linked by no ties to earth, steadfast in Me,
65
That man I love!
But most of all I love
Those happy ones to whom ’tis life to live
In single fervid faith and love unseeing,
Eating the blessèd Amrit of my Being!
70
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