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A conference held a few months ago amongsts Mormon pacifists.

One of the session speakers was D. Michael Quinn, an ex-BYU History Prof. Quinn talked about his book on Lds First President J. Reuben Clark (First President is one of the three highest ranking in the Lds church hierarchy).

Quinn's talk was entitled “Pacifist Counselor in the First Presidency: J. Reuben Clark, 1933-61” (Clark was in that role all throughout WWII and the Korean War)

If you look at a description of Quinn's book on Clark (see J. Reuben Clark: The Church Years), you'll see this excerpt:

Quinn includes and invaluable chapter entitled, "Those Who Take the Sword" which explores the evolution of Clark's pacifism and ideas concerning war. It is a great chapter on the broader subject of Mormon pacifism which is a little explored aspect of Mormonism. Clark who looked on pluralism with disdain convinced the church to reimburse Quaker conscientious objector camps which sheltered Mormon pacifists during the second World War. The chapter does a great job tracking Clark's evolving views on war, peace, isolationism, and the idea of just war. Well chosen quotes from Clark's Mormon General Conference decrying the use of atomic bombs to murder the quarter million "men, women, and children, and cripples" in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Clark served as a chairman for the oldest pacifist organization in the U.S., Americans For Peace. Clark was in the position of spokesman for the church and a touching expression of his loyalty and subservience to the prophet and the office of the president is manifested through his official pronouncements in favor of supporting military service, which the church supported, but to which Clark at this point was unalterably opposed.

1 posted on 05/30/2011 12:30:51 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: All
For you non-Mormons allow me to interpret some of the terms: "From the Plates" (linked to Duran's session) = a reference to the supposed up to 234-pound gold plates that Joseph Smith hauled back, at one pointing running with them "at the top of his speed"...see How Heavy Were Those Gold Plates? for details.

Joshua Madson did a session called “A Nonviolent Reading of the Book of Mormon”...This is an absolutely hilarious "interpretation" of the Book of Mormon! If you've read any part of the Book of Mormon, it's a myth-book of wars upon wars where they're slaughtering each other to the last man!

For example, in the book of Alma in almost every chapter are accounts of perpetual wars and implausible battles. And it's the longest book in the BoM at 60-some chapters. What's funny in the Book of Alma is that when you look at Alma 30:2 it says there was "continual peace" that finally broke out 74 B.C. Then fast-forward to Alma 35:13, where it's two years later, and war was issued. "Continual peace" was two years???? :)

Also, I'd like to know what "weapons of peace" they had back then (Alma 24:19)! Joseph Smith's writing is such that he starts off Alma, in 1:1, saying "having warred a good warfare"... Hmmm...

In the book of Ether, after a character named Coriantumr started second-guessing whether having two million of his people killed by swords (boy, that's a lot of sword blood-letting), he cut off a character's head by the name of Shiz (Ether 15:30). The NEXT verse says what happened to Shiz AFTER his head was cut off: ...AFTER he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised upon his hands and fell;
and AFTER that he had struggled for breath, he died.

Hmmm...No head...still was able to raise himself up on his hands...then was struggling for breath...

O-Kayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

2 posted on 05/30/2011 12:32:56 PM PDT by Colofornian (Key Q for Romney & Huntsman: Show us your spirit-birth certificate from Kolob)
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Session 3 covered the Mormons' Doctrine & Covenants 98

I'm really not sure about lessons about "peace" and pacifism in D&C 98. What I got out of D&C 98 was Joseph Smith's lessons in math!
"...if your enemy shall smite you the second time, and you revile not against your enemy, and bear it patiently, your reward shall be an hundred-fold. And again, if she shall smite you the third time, and ye bear it patiently, your reward shall be doubled unto you four-fold." (D&C 98:25-26)

What? "Doubled unto us four-fold?" I thought the second-smite reward was already 100-fold...and now Joe says it'll be doubled for a third smite...well, not exactly "doubled" but "doubled...four-fold."

OKay.....

3 posted on 05/30/2011 12:34:22 PM PDT by Colofornian (Key Q for Romney & Huntsman: Show us your spirit-birth certificate from Kolob)
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I have a book by Mormon author George W. Givens. It's entitled 500 More Little-Known Facts in Mormon History (2004, Bonneville Books, Springville, Utah).

On p. 229, Givens writes this peace about Conscientious Objection in 1919 in Mormon History: "The question of conscientious objection and Mormonism did not become an issue until the beginning of World War I due to a misunderstanding as to where the Church stood on pacifism. There were a total of 3,700 conscientious objectors (C.O.s) during that war, a number of them Latter-day Saints. Like others, the Saints were given an option of going to prison or performing 'alternative service' such as firefighting or counseling mental patients in hospitals. The issue became predominant when Fort Douglas became a prison in 1919 for the C.O.s who refused the alternative service. The policy of the [Mormon] Church is still not totally understood in spite of its clarification that we believe in being subject to our secular governments but may choose C.O. status as a matter of personal belief."

5 posted on 05/30/2011 12:40:16 PM PDT by Colofornian (Key Q for Romney & Huntsman: Show us your spirit-birth certificate from Kolob)
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In light of the reality that one of Romney's top three leaders the first 13 years of his life was a devout pacifist who was "unalterably opposed" to "official pronouncements in favor of supporting military service" (see post 1 for source)...and that Romney avoided military service...as has his five sons...

...Has Romney's positions on pacifism and military service been carefully vetted?

6 posted on 05/30/2011 12:46:45 PM PDT by Colofornian (Key Q for Romney & Huntsman: Show us your spirit-birth certificate from Kolob)
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To: Colofornian
A conference held a few months ago amongsts Mormon pacifists.

If the people [of Missouri] come on us to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Quran or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us – Joseph Smith or the Sword – Joseph Smith's Declaration of War in Missouri, October 14, 1838, History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 167.

The idea of "Mormon Pacifists" is a hoot.

In his History of Utah, the noted historian Hubert Bancroft, records the Missouri Mormon War of 1838, the Illinois Mormon Wars of 1944 and 1847, and the Utah Mormon War of 1857. In each instance, the U.S. Army and/or National Guard was commissioned to stop the Saints from slaughtering each other and/or their Gentile neighbors.

Bancroft also chronicles six Mormon Civil Wars. The Walker War (1853-4) and Black Hawk War (1865-72) were two in a series of eight named Mormon / Indian wars that lasted decades and were among some of the most violent and longest running American Indian conflicts in U.S. history. About 400 Shoshones were killed at the Bear River Massacre, the worst slaughter if Indians in US history (compare to the 153 Indians killed at Wounded Knee). This incident was provoked by and in some sense led by the Saints.

And who can forget the Danites a.k.a. Avenging Angels a.k.a. Mormon Militia, the Saints equivalent of the Klu Klux Klan, who murdered hundreds (some say thousands) in Missouri, Illinois, and Utah -- and beat and castrated thousands more. Or Porter Rockwell (shown above), the worst murderer in US history, who is credited with 200 killings not including the three dozen or US soldiers who perished at Fort Bridger as a consequence of his ambush of their supply caravans.

And then there was the Mountain Meadows Massacre where approximately 120 Gentiles were murdered and 18 children were kidnapped so that the Saints could feast on the 1,000 (or so) head of cattle the settlers were herding to Southern California. This incident remains the worst robbery-murder in US history.

In fact, with the exception of Islam, a powerful argument can be made that the Saints have been the most violent cult in history. The claim that they were pacifist in the manner of, say, Quakers or Mennonites, is about as ridiculous as their assertion that they are Christian.

10 posted on 05/30/2011 1:52:01 PM PDT by Zakeet (The difference between the Wee Wee and a battery ... the battery has a positive side)
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To: Colofornian
Complimentary dinners and lunches will be provided for those who register by March 11.

A Happy Meal® or a Big Mac combo®.

(Joan B. Kroc of McDonald's, Inc.)

19 posted on 05/30/2011 5:57:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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