Posted on 05/19/2013 4:54:01 AM PDT by NYer
EDITOR'S NOTE: For the last half of the twentieth century, Antony Flew (1923-2010) was the world's most famous atheist. Long before Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Sam Harris began taking swipes at religion, Flew was the preeminent spokesman for unbelief.
However in 2004, he shocked the world by announcing he had come to believe in God. While never embracing Christianity—Flew only believed in the deistic, Aristotelian conception of God—he became one of the most high-profile and surprising atheist converts. In 2007, he recounted his conversion in a book titled There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind. Some critics suggested Flew's mental capacity had declined and therefore we should question the credibility of his conversion. Others hailed Flew's book as a legitimate and landmark publication.
A couple months before the book's release, Flew sat down with Strange Notions contributor Dr. Benjamin Wiker for an interview about his book, his conversion, and the reasons that led him to God. Read below and enjoy!
Antony Flew: There were two factors in particular that were decisive. One was my growing empathy with the insight of Einstein and other noted scientists that there had to be an Intelligence behind the integrated complexity of the physical Universe. The second was my own insight that the integrated complexity of life itself—which is far more complex than the physical Universe—can only be explained in terms of an Intelligent Source. I believe that the origin of life and reproduction simply cannot be explained from a biological standpoint despite numerous efforts to do so. With every passing year, the more that was discovered about the richness and inherent intelligence of life, the less it seemed likely that a chemical soup could magically generate the genetic code. The difference between life and non-life, it became apparent to me, was ontological and not chemical. The best confirmation of this radical gulf is Richard Dawkins' comical effort to argue in The God Delusion that the origin of life can be attributed to a "lucky chance." If that's the best argument you have, then the game is over. No, I did not hear a Voice. It was the evidence itself that led me to this conclusion.
Wiker: You are famous for arguing for a presumption of atheism, i.e., as far as arguments for and against the existence of God, the burden of proof lies with the theist. Given that you believe that you only followed the evidence where it led, and it led to theism, it would seem that things have now gone the other way, so that the burden of proof lies with the atheist. He must prove that God doesn't exist. What are your thoughts on that?
Flew: I note in my book that some philosophers indeed have argued in the past that the burden of proof is on the atheist. I think the origins of the laws of nature and of life and the Universe point clearly to an intelligent Source. The burden of proof is on those who argue to the contrary.
Wiker: As for evidence, you cite a lot of the most recent science, yet you remark that your discovery of the Divine did not come through "experiments and equations," but rather, "through an understanding of the structures they unveil and map." Could you explain? Does that mean that the evidence that led you to God is not really, at heart, scientific?
Flew: It was empirical evidence, the evidence uncovered by the sciences. But it was a philosophical inference drawn from the evidence. Scientists as scientists cannot make these kinds of philosophical inferences. They have to speak as philosophers when they study the philosophical implications of empirical evidence.
Wiker: You are obviously aware of the spate of recent books by such atheists as Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. They think that those who believe in God are behind the times. But you seem to be politely asserting that they are ones who are behind the times, insofar as the latest scientific evidence tends strongly toward—or perhaps even demonstrates—a theistic conclusion. Is that a fair assessment of your position?
Flew: Yes, indeed. I would add that Dawkins is selective to the point of dishonesty when he cites the views of scientists on the philosophical implications of the scientific data.
Two noted philosophers, one an agnostic (Anthony Kenny) and the other an atheist (Thomas Nagel), recently pointed out that Dawkins has failed to address three major issues that ground the rational case for God. As it happens, these are the very same issues that had driven me to accept the existence of a God: the laws of nature, life with its teleological organization, and the existence of the Universe.
Wiker: You point out that the existence of God and the existence of evil are actually two different issues, which would therefore require two distinct investigations. But in the popular literature—even in much of the philosophical literature—the two issues are regularly conflated. Especially among atheists, the presumption is that the non-existence of God simply follows upon the existence of evil. What is the danger of such conflation? How as a theist do you now respond?
Flew: I should clarify that I am a deist. I do not accept any claim of divine revelation though I would be happy to study any such claim (and continue to do so in the case of Christianity). For the deist, the existence of evil does not pose a problem because the deist God does not intervene in the affairs of the world. The religious theist, of course, can turn to the free-will defense (in fact I am the one who first coined the phrase free-will defense). Another relatively recent change in my philosophical views is my affirmation of the freedom of the will.
Wiker: According to There is a God, you are not what might be called a "thin theist," that is, the evidence led you not merely to accept that there is a "cause" of nature, but "to accept the existence of a self-existent, immutable, immaterial, omnipotent, and omniscient Being." How far away are you, then, from accepting this Being as a person rather than a set of characteristics, however accurate they may be? (I'm thinking of C. S. Lewis' remark that a big turning point for him, in accepting Christianity, was in realizing that God was not a "place"—a set of characteristics, like a landscape—but a person.)
Flew: I accept the God of Aristotle who shares all the attributes you cite. Like Lewis I believe that God is a person but not the sort of person with whom you can have a talk. It is the ultimate being, the Creator of the Universe.
Wiker: Do you plan to write a follow-up book to There is a God?
Flew: As I said in opening the book, this is my last will and testament.
Since God exists and loves us no matter what, why the need to prove it to someone? God knows what is in one’s heart, right?
I strongly commend another of Wikers books....”Moral Darwinism, How We Became Hedonists”. I began about 1 week ago re-reading this work. It is one of the best books on the history of evolution I have ever read.
re: “Lastly, freewill assumes one can choose perfect good. My bible says that mankind was born into sin and is a slave to it until set free by Christ. I’ll keep my soteriology.”
Then, my question to you is, how do you know you are one of God’s elect? Is it possible for someone to think they are saved, but are not? Matthew 7:21?
The heart is deceptive, so are emotions - how do you KNOW that you really accepted Christ? Because you said some words of belief??
Why is it, that proof of ones belief is even considered to be necessary?=================
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
..........[Stephen Roberts]
Yes
Anyone can say they believe, but how does one truly believe something today, that was unbelievable to them yesterday?
Yes, I believe the Bible teaches that all mankind is born with a sin nature, a bent toward sinning - but, if it is impossible for someone to respond to God’s love unless they are given a special call, then God chooses some for salvation and chooses some for Hell. I just cannot believe that God predestines people to Hell. I also do not see how God is not responsible for evil if everything that happens, even our choosing to sin, is preordained by God. That is not the God of the Bible.
I know that there is, somehow, involved in salvation, God’s sovereign work taking place, but I also believe we have the ability to respond to God’s grace. Without that ability to respond to that grace we cannot be saved. I believe God gives that ability to everyone. Some believe, some reject, and all are held responsible for their choices. I do not believe that God fixes it so certain people cannot respond. That is not the God of the Bible.
We cannot achieve salvation by our own merit. God alone provides that finished work of salvation, but God gives us the choice. How many times in Scripture does God tell us to choose? To choose to obey. Jesus said, “Whosoever will may come”.
The Apostle Paul argues in Romans 1 that no one has an excuse not to know that God exists, because God’s work in creation is clearly seen. How can people be without excuse if they have no ability to comprehend God’s acts?
I have many friends who are Calvinistic in their view point and I know they love the Lord. I just do not believe that we are robots who just follow some pre-programmed map. We just agree not to argue about it.
“It was the evidence itself that led me to this conclusion.”
Exactly.
And I’d like to say something here that might be considered off topic, but it’s a thought I’ve had before and it’s occurring to me again now.
It involves paganism I suppose, rather than religion, but perhaps some will see the relevance (if there is any!)
Isn’t it interesting how pagans would want to get a lock of a person’s hair, or some other small body remnant in order to cast a spell on that person. For how many centuries was this considered just “superstition” by more educated (for want of a better word) people.
And yet, and yet, weren’t those old witch doctors exactly right? Now that we know (by watching CSI if nothing else) that your entire individual physical profile is present even in a lock of hair?
I thought of this a while ago and I still find it pretty mind boggling.
It's something inside you...Bible says it's spirit...Something is planted in your inner being and you just know...
Of course there's 'head' belief which may change depending on the direction the wind blows...
Mr. Flew is dead.
So people cannot really just decide to believe something?
No, I believe because God has given me the “gifts” of faith and repentance. It has nothing to do with me.
What is in your heart is not static. Man who is aware of God’s existence will be free to act in the knowledge of the purpose of his life, and a man who is not aware of it cannot be free.
This premise is not accurate. It is possible for one to respond to God's love, first hesitantly or instinctively, and then gradually growing in faith and knowledge. Divine predestination occurs outside of human linear time and therefore takes into account the free-will response of faith. "when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son" (Romans 5:10)
So God does not choose anyone for hell: "[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:4).
I have many friends who are Calvinistic in their view point
Then witness to them. It is a severe error.
re: “So God does not choose anyone for hell: “[God] will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4).”
I completely concur with your assessment of the passage you quote above. I also agree with your view that Calvinists are in error, but woe to any who try to witness to them about that.
re: “No, I believe because God has given me the “gifts” of faith and repentance. It has nothing to do with me.”
But what guarantee do you have that you are really exercising the “gifts” of real faith and repentance? You don’t know because according to Calvinism, it is God who decides who is saved and who isn’t, even though you may “think” you are, you may be mistaken.
People can believe they believe, but are not one of the elect. How do you know that you are one of the elect? Just because you think you believe in God or in Christ? It has nothing to do with you - it is all God’s sovereign choice, right? Maybe you just think you believe, but are deluded. You have no assurance that you are one of the Elect because the decision is outside of anything you think, feel, or believe. It is all God’s sovereign choice and you have no access to that information according to the Calvinist view.
You may think you’ve been given the gift of faith from God, but since all of that is outside of anything you do or think or “think” you believe, you have no assurance that that means you are one of the Elect.
I do not understand what that means.
Why, this is what the Holy Scripture is for. While they beat their chests a lot how their views derive from the Holy Scripture, a closer examination shows them to be a counterscriptural hoax. They pick verses with "predestination" in it as if the word in scripture has the same meaning they inserted to it.
I commented that the syllogism is false because the content of your heart depends on the knowledge you have. Knowledge is good, therefore proving things is good. This is why people want to not simply make up their mind internally about God and sit with it, but rather discuss it and thus gain objective knowledge and be better men.
How do you know that the contents of one’s heart depends on the knowledge one has? That’s quite an assumption.
Why wouldn’t God know what is in one’s heart, even if that person did not know God? Isn’t that limiting God’s ability to know something, making man’s knowledge a prerequisite for God’s ability to know what is in a man’s heart?
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