Where the Christian Right Is Strong (national map included)

The New York Times ^ | July 2, 2014

[Faith Presses On]

The religious right remains one of the most potent forces in American politics, but Northeasterners could be forgiven for forgetting. Evangelical Christians and Mormons, the two religious groups who most consistently espouse conservative political and cultural views, are basically absent in the Northeastern corridor.

The map shows the number of regular Evangelical Christian or Mormon congregation members, as reported by religious bodies. The data, therefore, does not include every Mormon or Evangelical Christian in the country. Black Protestant denominations are a separate category from other Evangelical Protestant denominations in this data set, and are not represented on this map.

The map does not neatly represent the religious right, either. There are many religious and cultural conservatives who do not regularly attend church, perhaps especially in West Virginia, where reported attendance is unusually low.

[fso301]

I wrote:

Please cite the verse that you believe makes it so clear.

You replied with:

Please cite the verse that you believe makes it clear that one verse is what makes a doctrine to be a clear and present reality in the scripture.

Do you deny John 3:16?

Furthermore, let's not go twisting words. You clearly understood my comment in Post #86 as being a response to:

The Trinity is also not obscure, but a clear and present reality in the scripture.

Please cite the verse that you believe makes it so clear.

Getting back to your comment, I believe doctrine should be based on a body of scripture but where is the body of scripture establishing the Holy Spirit as a distinct divinity like God the Father and Christ?

[boatbums]

I agree but do question the importance of a doctrine not mentioned in the bible and that wasn't formalized until well after the scriptures had been closed?

Where did "they" get the idea of the Trinity if not from the Bible? All you have to do is read some of the writings of the "early church fathers" to see that their arguments for the divinity of Jesus Christ and the "triune" nature of Almighty God came from the Scriptures. Some good places to read about this subject are:

Bible Passages Affirming the Deity of Jesus

Ambrose on the Trinity

Aquinas on the Trinty

The Biblical Doctrine of the Trinity

[aMorePerfectUnion]

fso301

In my experience, it would be best if you did some/any initial search. Your interaction with the concepts will help you learn.

I suggest you start with this: What types of evidence would support that the Holy Spirit is God?

[boatbums]

In what way? Where do those writers establish the divinity of the Holy Spirit?

From A Brief Look at the Trinity:

The biblical doctrine of the Trinity is a much neglected doctrine.

Christians are ignorant of the doctrine or untrained in the scriptures.

Christians may believe the doctrine is not that important, because it is not specifically discussed in the Bible.

The doctrine is difficult to grasp and articulate, so it is ignored.

BUT the doctrine is important; because the Bible would have us accurately represent God. If the doctrine of the Trinity is true, then it would be sin to ignore it and misrepresent it.

Thesis: Three foundational areas of doctrine as revealed in Holy Scripture establish the biblical teaching of the Trinity. They are summarized in the following definition:

Within the one eternal Being that is God, there exists three, coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

1) God is one, solitary eternal God; there are no others.

The scriptures reveal to us that there is only one God.

Monotheism – monw (mono), meaning “one” and qeo (theo), meaning “God.”

Genesis 1:1ff – Only one God that was creating. Not a council of god’s or a plurality of gods. Only one.

Exodus 20:3-4 – Note the words, Before Me. Literally, To my face.

YHWH (God’s covenant name) is saying that he will not share his deity with any other god, or gods. (I would note that God could not share his deity with any other god, because none other exists). Furthermore, he demands Israel’s complete adoration and loyalty.

Why can God demand such obedience? Because no other god has proven his deity. YHWH demonstrated his exclusive claim to worship by destroying the major gods of the Egyptian religious system. If they had been real, living gods, they could have defended themselves.

Romans 16:27, Jude 25 – the phrase only wise God is translated from the Greek, root word mono, meaning one.

Eternal – That means God has no beginning or end. He has always been, and never will cease to be.

Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 46:9,10

2) God consists of three divine persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Personhood – It is important to distinguish God’s being from the three persons. This is where people get confused and false teaching is born.

NOT one being that is three beings. NOT one person that is three persons. BUT, One Being that is three persons.

Essentially, ONE what and THREE who’s. The one what is the Being or essence of God; the three who’s are the three persons: Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

The New Testament contains the fullest revelation of the Godhead.

The persons are revealed together, but separate – Matthew 3:16,17; Luke 10:22

Relate to one another – John 6:37ff, John 12:27-29, John 17

There is an object/subject distinctive between the persons of the Trinity. The Father sends the Son, the Son does the will of the Father, as well as prays to the Father, the Spirit is sent to comforter the Church after the Son returns to the Father.

Divine – The persons are also divine. In other words, each person is deity.

The Father: The NT reveals the Father to be the God of the OT.

Jesus spoke of Him as the Father of the people Israel. Matthew 5:48

The Father is said to be the provider (Mt. 6:8).

The Father forgives sins (Mt. 6:15).

The Son: Jesus is revealed in scripture as the Son of God. The attributes of deity are ascribed to him.

He forgives sins – Mark 2, He did creative miracles – John 2, 6, 11.

He claims divine titles for Himself – Christ, John 4:25,26.

Son of Man, Mark 14:61-62 (Dan. 7:13-14).

Good Shepherd, John 10 (Ps. 23, Ezek. 34)

He received worship – John 9:35-38; John 20:24-29

The Spirit: The spirit is sovereign – John 16:8-11; Acts 16:6ff; Equated to God – Acts 5:3,4

3) All Three persons of the Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal.

Though each person is an individual person, they are all three co-equal and co-eternal.

Apologist, theologian James White expresses this point well:

We are told that the relationship among these divine persons is eternal. They have eternally existed in the unique relationship. Each of the persons is said to be eternal, each is said to be coequal with the others as to their divine nature. Each fully shares the one Being that is God. The Father is not 1/3 of God, the Son 1/3 God, the Spirit 1/3 of God. Each is fully God, co-equal with the others, and that eternally. There was never was a time when the Father was not the Father; never a time when the Son was not the Son; never a time when the Spirit was not the Spirit. James White, The Forgotten Trinity, pg. 27 We see this truth affirmed in scripture: John 1:1-3, John 17:5, Romans 9:5, Colossians 1:15-18

[fso301]

First of all, that you for the links. You are the first poster to actually offer support to your position.

Now I will respond to your comments.

Where did "they" get the idea of the Trinity if not from the Bible?

I'm not sure what post(s) in this thread that you are referencing but at least one poster in this thread was saying a person that does not believe in the Trinity will be eternally damned. My response was that such belief is unbiblical.

All you have to do is read some of the writings of the "early church fathers" to see that their arguments for the divinity of Jesus Christ and the "triune" nature of Almighty God came from the Scriptures. Some good places to read about this subject are:

As you state, it was after scripture had closed that church fathers increasingly grappled with reconciling monotheism with God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. From this, they formalized the triune nature of God, Christ and the Holy Spirit as the Trinity. I can understand how they would come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is a distinct divinity, coequal and coeternal with God and Christ but I can also understand from scripture how a person might decide the Holy Spirit is more likely to be a force, or God's presence.

The body of scripture dealing with God and Christ is fairly well developed and it is clear that the Gospel writers regarded God the Father and Christ the Son as divine. Both were prayed to and both were worshiped in scripture. When it comes to the Holy Spirit, it is neither worshiped nor prayed to by the Gospel writers. Does this mean the Holy Spirit is not the third member of the Trinity? Not necessarily. But scripture dealing with the Holy Spirit is ambiguous as to its nature.

Nowhere in scripture is it written that salvation is contingent upon belief in the Trinity. God via the apostles gave us a brief expansion of his nature from what was revealed in the Old Testament but as creator of the universe, his complete nature may go far beyond even the Trinity. Therefore, believing in the Trinity may actually place limits on God.

[fso301]

I suggest you start with this: What types of evidence would support that the Holy Spirit is God?

That the Apostles wrote about worshiping the Holy Spirit and praying to the Holy Spirit as they did for God and Christ.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Worship.

OK what else?

Men worshipped angels wrongly - and the golden calf too. Neither were God. What distinguishes God from everything else that isn’t God?

[Elsie]

Do you have a witness for Mormonism?

[Chickensoup]

The NYT. That is where I go for unbiased information about religion in the US./sarcasm

[Elsie]

Without reading the entire book of mormon, or at least the chapter from which that page was extracted, I'd be reluctant to comment.

Hardly ANY 'doctrine' comes from the BoM.

Most of it is found in the OTHER Mormon 'scriptures' - Doctrines & Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price.

Get all four (Kings James Bible, too!) in a handy format: the famous Quad!

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

Thank you but I'll defer direct response to your first paragraph simply in order to maintain focus of the topic at hand which is the Trinity.

Actually, the "focus of the topic at hand" was indeed your defense of Mormonism as a Christian religion. You are just changing the goal posts. Your statements on the Trinity was only part of your reasoning to support your primary claim. However, I predicted that you would avoid the topic of Mormonism since, if you defended it, you would be forced to either deny or don't mention what they teach and focus on bland moralism, explain how polytheism is scriptural or at least not a big deal for us monotheists, or at least launch an argument in favor of "doctrines not being a big deal," and thus coming out as a relativist. All these approaches are unattractive, so the only other alternative is to go on the offensive. But this also is in vain.

In another thread when I have more time I'd be happy to broaden the discussion.

I doubt that, but to prove me wrong, how about you start the thread and ping me to it?

Please cite the verse that you believe makes it so clear.

OK, but it will be multiple verses, plus the one I already showed.

Since we know the scripture "cannot be broken," as Christ puts it, meaning that it cannot be contradicted, we know that each verse must be believed.

1) Christianity is monotheistic, using the verse I already showed.

2) Christ is God:

John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

This chapter also identifies the Word as Christ. Note that Christ is both with God and is God. He is thus distinct with God, being with Him, yet, at the same time, He is the same God.

3) The Holy Spirit is God: Act 5:3-4 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

4) The Father is God, and is distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit.

"And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." (Mar 1:10-11

Here the Father speaks in heaven, while the Holy Spirit hovers above the Son.

2Co_13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Here they are addressed separately.

Mat_28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Here we are baptized in their name, showing their equality with one another in the divine institution of baptism.

So let's add it together 1 + 2 + 3 + 4: Since there is only one God, yet the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three persons, then these three must be of one substance in the Godhead, or, in other words, the Trinity. Not conflating the persons as different "modes", like an actor going from role to role, nor dividing them, as the Mormons do, into three seperate gods.

Please show me the scripture which says that. In your first paragraph you strongly condemned anyone spreading a false gospel so, show me the scripture that places salvation subject to belief in the Trinity.

The scripture condemns polytheism:

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

The scripture also commands belief in Jesus Christ, not just in His person, as if He is an empty person with no doctrine, but in His testimony as well, which includes His sayings on the Godhead and, really, all the teachings of the Apostles as well. If you disbelieve Christ's own plain word, then you have no truth in you.

[Elsie]

Without reading the entire book of mormon...

You'll note that the KJV of the bible is, shall we say, suspect; as found in the Articles of Faith: reply 79 this thread...

8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

[Elsie]

We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly...

Joseph Smith was COMMANDED by GOD to re-translate the KJV bible to get rid of the errors in it.

He did, and it is known as the JST: Joseph Smith translation.

For some strange reason; SLC does NOT consider IT to be SCRIPTURE, and chooses instead to use the fault KJV.

I have NO idea why this is so...

[Elsie]

 

See some differences between GOD's Word and the Joseph Smith's 'translation'

 

 

---

Color coding explanation:

 

Added stuff... Changed stuff... Rearranged stuff... Removed stuff... 

 *(UNDERLINED stuff is the DISTRACTING reference on every tenth word or so that infuses LDS 'scripture' online.)

---

 

 

 

 

JOSEPH SMITH—MATTHEW An extract from the translation of the Bible as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet in 1831: Matthew 23: 39 and chapter 24. Jesus foretells the impending destruction of Jerusalem—He also discourses on the second coming of the Son of Man, and the destruction of the wicked. 1 aFor I say unto you, that ye shall not see me henceforth and know that I am he of whom it is written by the prophets, until ye shall say: Blessed is he who bcometh in the name of the Lord, in the clouds of heaven, and all the holy angels with him. Then understood his disciples that he should come again on the earth, after that he was glorified and ccrowned on the right hand of God. 2 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple; and his disciples came to him, for to ahear him, saying: Master, show us concerning the buildings of the temple, as thou hast said—They shall be thrown down, and left unto you desolate. 3 And Jesus said unto them: See ye not all these things, and do ye not understand them? Verily I say unto you, there shall not be left here, upon this temple, one astone upon another that shall not be thrown down. 4 And Jesus left them, and went upon the Mount of Olives. And as he sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying: Tell us when shall these things be which thou hast said concerning the destruction of the temple, and the Jews; and what is the asign of thy bcoming, and of the cend of the world, or the destruction of the dwicked, which is the end of the world? 5 And Jesus answered, and said unto them: Take heed that no man deceive you; 6 For many shall come in my name, saying—I am aChrist—and shall deceive many; 7 Then shall they deliver you up to be aafflicted, and shall kill you, and ye shall be bhated of all nations, for my name’s sake; 8 And then shall many be aoffended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another; 9 And many afalse prophets shall arise, and shall deceive many; 10 And because iniquity shall abound, the alove of many shall wax cold; 11 But he that remaineth asteadfast and is not overcome, the same shall be saved. 12 When you, therefore, shall see the aabomination of bdesolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, concerning the destruction of cJerusalem, then you shall stand in the dholy place; whoso readeth let him understand. 13 Then let them who are in Judea flee into the amountains; 14 Let him who is on the housetop flee, and not return to take anything out of his house; 15 Neither let him who is in the field return back to take his clothes; 16 And wo unto them that are with achild, and unto them that give suck in those days; 17 Therefore, pray ye the Lord that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the Sabbath day; 18 For then, in those days, shall be great atribulation on the bJews, and upon the inhabitants of cJerusalem, such as was not before sent upon Israel, of God, since the beginning of their kingdom until this time; no, nor ever shall be sent again upon Israel. 19 All things which have befallen them are only the beginning of the sorrows which shall come upon them. 20 And except those days should be shortened, there should none of their flesh be asaved; but for the elect’s sake, according to the bcovenant, those days shall be shortened. 21 Behold, these things I have spoken unto you concerning the Jews; and again, after the tribulation of those days which shall come upon Jerusalem, if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe him not; 22 For in those days there shall also arise false aChrists, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant. 23 Behold, I speak these things unto you for the aelect’s sake; and you also shall hear of bwars, and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled, for all I have told you must come to pass; but the end is not yet. 24 Behold, I have told you before; 25 Wherefore, if they shall say unto you: Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: Behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not; 26 For as the light of the morning cometh out of the aeast, and shineth even unto the west, and covereth the whole earth, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 27 And now I show unto you a parable. Behold, wheresoever the acarcass is, there will the eagles be bgathered together; so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth. 28 And they shall hear of wars, and rumors of wars. 29 Behold I speak for mine elect’s sake; for nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be afamines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 30 And again, because iniquity shall abound, the love of men shall wax acold; but he that shall not be overcome, the same shall be saved. 31 And again, this aGospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world, for a witness unto all bnations, and then shall the end come, or the destruction of the wicked; 32 And again shall the aabomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, be fulfilled. 33 And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the asun shall be bdarkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the cstars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 34 Verily, I say unto you, this ageneration, in which these things shall be shown forth, shall not pass away until all I have told you shall be fulfilled. 35 Although, the days will come, that heaven and earth shall pass away; yet my awords shall not pass away, but all shall be fulfilled. 36 And, as I said before, after the atribulation of those days, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken, then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven, and then shall all the tribes of the earth bmourn; and they shall see the cSon of Man dcoming in the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory; 37 And whoso atreasureth up my word, shall not be deceived, for the Son of Man shall bcome, and he shall send his cangels before him with the great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together the dremainder of his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 38 Now learn a parable of the afig-tree—When its branches are yet tender, and it begins to put forth leaves, you know that summer is nigh at hand; 39 So likewise, mine elect, when they shall see all these things, they shall know that he is near, even at the doors; 40 But of that day, and hour, no one aknoweth; no, not the angels of God in heaven, but my Father only. 41 But as it was in the days of aNoah, so it shall be also at the coming of the Son of Man; 42 For it shall be with them, as it was in the days which were before the aflood; for until the day that Noah entered into the ark they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage; 43 And aknew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. 44 Then shall be fulfilled that which is written, that in the alast days, two shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other bleft; 45 Two shall be grinding at the mill, the one shall be taken, and the other left; 46 And what I say unto one, I say unto all men; awatch, therefore, for you know not at what hour your Lord doth come. 47 But know this, if the good man of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to have been broken up, but would have been ready. 48 Therefore be ye also aready, for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of Man cometh. 49 Who, then, is a afaithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 50 Blessed is that aservant whom his lord, when he cometh, shall find so doing; and verily I say unto you, he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 51 But if that evil servant shall say in his heart: My lord adelayeth his coming, 52 And shall begin to smite his fellow-servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken, 53 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 54 And shall cut him asunder, and shall appoint him his portion with the hypocrites; there shall be weeping and agnashing of teeth. 55 And thus cometh the aend of the wicked, according to the prophecy of Moses, saying: They shall be cut off from among the people; but the end of the earth is not yet, but by and by. The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints © 2006 Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All rights reserved. Rights and use information. Privacy policy.

KJV Matthew 23:38-39 24:1-51 39. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. 1. And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. 3. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4. And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6. And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8. All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11. And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15. When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16. Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17. Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18. Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20. But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25. Behold, I have told you before. 26. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. 32. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33. So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39. And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46. Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47. Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48. But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49. And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50. The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51. And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. King James Version of the Holy Bible Public domain

[Elsie]

Where do those writers establish the divinity of the Holy Spirit?

That's what every JW wants to know.

The Holy Spirit can be GRIEVED: Ephesians 4:30
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God...

GOD can be GRIEVED: Genesis 6:6
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him...

[fso301]

Worship. OK what else?

Either worship, or divine titles. Either appearing in scripture would greatly clarify the nature of the Holy Spirit as a diving being rather than an impersonal force.

Men worshipped angels wrongly

And were told not to do it.

and the golden calf too.

And were punished for doing so.

What distinguishes God from everything else that isn’t God?

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

I can understand how they would come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is a distinct divinity, coequal and coeternal with God and Christ but I can also understand from scripture how a person might decide the Holy Spirit is more likely to be a force, or God's presence.

Since you hold that the Father and Son are divine, but the Holy Spirit as a "force," I think this means you are an Armstrongite. They believe in a "open Godhead", similar to the Mormons, wherein they also will become "God" provided they follow all of the commandments (as they see it), including Jewish law (or their silly understanding of it). The Godhead is thus larger than a trinity in their view, but is initially limited to just the Father and the Son with the Spirit being only a force.

Like Mormons they also do not really have their trust in Jesus Christ. They believe that salvation comes not from Christ, but from their own obedience to their church institution and the works of the law. The fact that cults such as these also disbelieve the Trinity is just, well, a very common characteristic. All groups that deny the Trinity, also deny salvation by grace alone, and not by our merits.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

I have NO idea why this is so...

Because Mormonism is itself an entirely absurd and contradictory religion. If it could make sense, it would not be Mormonism.

[fso301]

That's what every JW wants to know.

LOL! The Holy Spirit can be GRIEVED: Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God...

Yes, those definitely give a personal quality to the Holy Spirit but do not differentiate it from divine rather than another type of spirit being. Meanwhile, many other scriptures write of it as almost a fluid that can be poured out.

[fso301]

Since you hold that the Father and Son are divine, but the Holy Spirit as a "force," I think this means you are an Armstrongite.

I'm not sure where you got that from my post. I wrote:

I can understand how they would come to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is a distinct divinity, coequal and coeternal with God and Christ but I can also understand from scripture how a person might decide the Holy Spirit is more likely to be a force, or God's presence.