Posted on 01/16/2015 8:03:35 AM PST by Salvation
Whatever. I’m unwilling to spend the day going back and forth. Say what you will, believe as you want. I don’t need agreement or approval. I get involved in these discussions for the sake of the gospel. God will use the truth as He sees fit.
When I say the Bible clearly teaches that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works, I am able to back it up with explicit Scripture. I can post scores of passages to back up what I say. You said your point was clearly stated in the Bible, yet even after I asked you for references, you failed to back it up whatsoever.
It’s instructive to remember John 6:29 where Jesus tells us the only WORK which men must do to be saved... “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
You’ve got a lot of Scripture to explain away if salvation isn’t a free gift (by “grace alone”) without works. Below I’ve posted a mere fraction to get you started.
(Romans 3:20-28) “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
{21} But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
{22} Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
{23} For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
{24} Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
{25} Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
{26} To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
{27} Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
{28} Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
(Romans 5:18-19) “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
{19} For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
(Romans 6:23) “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
(Romans 11:6) “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
(1 Corinthians 4:7) “For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?”
(1 Corinthians 15:10) “But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.”
(Galatians 2:16) “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
(Galatians 2:21) “I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.”
(Ephesians 2:8-9) “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
{9} Not of works, lest any man should boast.”
(2 Timothy 1:9) “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,”
I think I’ll sit this one out.
Do not forget that chapter 3 is also a part of the whole epistle, which explained it more completely in chapter two.
Romans 2:
[6] Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
[7] To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
[8] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
[9] Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[10] But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
[11] For there is no respect of persons with God.
[12] For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
[14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
[15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
For later viewing of the video.
If your position is that men are saved by works, then the opposite is true. Chapter 1 and 2 of Romans deal with Paul's argument that both Jews and Gentiles (that is, the whole world) are condemned and cannot be saved because they are all found wanting. None of them can survive being judged by the covenant of works. It is strictly true that God will render to every man according to his deeds, and that the righteous will be rewarded, but all the world is guilty and there are none righteous, which is his argument in Romans 1 and 2:
"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Rom 3:9-11)
Even the Christian, who has been transformed by grace, yet remains in conflict with the sin in his body, and thus falls short of justification according to the law:
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Certainly no wretched man can ever enter into heaven if God marks his iniquity. But man does not go to heaven based on his own merits, but on the imputed righteousness of Christ that comes by faith. Therefore salvation must be by grace, and if by grace, then no one receives salvation as a result of their labor, otherwise grace is no longer grace, and all men descend into hell without any hope:
Rom_4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
James 1:
[21] Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
[22] But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[23] For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Speaking of innane tangential questions:
I wonder how long Msgr Pope would last on FR, or any Internet forum really. It seems as though those who give apologetics to any faith, Catholicism included, on the Internet, are demanded a level of precision that in the real world, the world of polite conversation and verbal communication, is not required.
This thought strikes me constantly when I listen to shows like Catholic Answers Live. The people that call into that show (who aren’t Catholic) seem to be quite happy with the apologetics they provide there. I wonder why? Really. I do wonder.
Don’t people who debate online call into shows like that? I’ve sometimes wondered what a chat would be like between, say, Jimmy Akin and an anti-Catholicism FReeper. I can’t imagine it would be any different in terms of civility. So I find myself wishing some of you guys would call them on occassion.
Most of the questions they field are softballs like “call no man Father”. Not the humdingers like around here! Sometimes I think they have no idea the level of “granularity” apologetics demands online. Even Jimmy Akin! Even though he writes a blog.
Don’t get me wrong, CA is a great resource, but only as a stepping off point. At least sometimes, as I think the debates around here go into the tall grass, so to speak. Way beyond whatever help can be found there.
With that, I’m hitting the road back home. And yes, I’ll be listening to Catholic Answers (podcast) on the way home. Hehe
Have a nice weekend everybody!
< /semi-rant >
However, good works are evidence that true saving faith is present.
Please argue with someone else. I'm done.
You have to read Romans 3 in light of the solid details he revealed in Romans 2, since they are the same communication, Romans 2 being the details, and Romans 3 being the result.
God’s word has no contradictions. Romans 3 also has to align with his letter to the Corinthians, and James letter to the Hebrew dispersion in Asia Minor, or the whole Bible falls to shambles.
Isn't it interesting that this bishop ignores the many scriptures written to the church that actually explain the faith alone position...
Just another faker and corrupter of God's word...
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>> “t’s been said that anything added to faith alone in Christ alone...” <<
But if you discard what faith in him is, that statement is empty.
Faith in him is his entire presentation to us, believing all of what he said, doing all he did, and asked us to do, and it never ends, as John went to great effort and detail to tell us in his first epistle.
The way you use that statement is absolutely empty of meaning.
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Isn't it interesting that this bishop ignores the many scriptures written to the church that actually explain the faith alone position...
Just another faker and corrupter of God's word...
First, Scripture as we know it (with the full New Testament) was not fully assembled and agreed upon until the 4th century. And it was Catholic bishops, in union with the Pope, who made the decision as to which books belonged in the Bible.
Nothing new here...What he failed to mention that it is the Catholic version of the bible with it's fake extra books that was created 300 years after Christians were preaching from the bible, being saved and building churches all over the known world...
The early Christians could not possibly have lived by sola scriptura since the Scriptures were not even fully written in the earliest years. And though collected and largely completed in written form by 100 AD, the set of books and letters that actually made up the New Testament was only agreed upon by the 4th Century.
True Christians were copying and re-copying and traslating into other languages long before the Catholic religion came up with it's own version...
This bishop isn't very truthful...But then his obvious goal is to bolster Catholicism's bondage of Catholics to it's system...
The rest of this article has been debunked so many time it's hardly worth the time to reject it yet again...
Ping!
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>> “Saving Faith—affects the intellect, the emotions, and prompts the believer to act. Disciples try to imitate their master—and do everything he does.” <<
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This is the very spine of our salvation.
One cannot be a disciple without completely imitating the Master.
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Romans chapter 3 is a contradiction to chapter 2...Chapter 2 tells us how it used to be and chapter 3 tells us how it now is...
I said I was done, but since you didn’t understand what that meant I will suggest you and all of Rome read your works passage from James in light of all those passages I listed earlier.
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>> “If your position is that men are saved by works, then the opposite is true.” <<
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That suggestion is a strawman if it is in response to anything I have ever said.
We are saved as a result of the faith that is propelled by God’s grace. That faith’s action within us is to produce the works that Yeshua has demanded of us, and which he and his apostles assure us are always present if the faith is real.
God’s word allegorizes this as “writing his law on our hearts.”
You clearly do not understand any part of Paul’s epistle to his Roman sheep if your first paragraph is any indication. Perhaps that is all that you are able to understand of it.
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