Romans, Martin Luther and 1515 (Protestant/Evangelical Caucus)

Don Sweeting ^ | 9/10/2015 | Don Sweeting

[Dutchboy88]

"How and when am I to know I am one of the elect ?"

Is this a question to somehow "prove" that the issues presented in the Scriptures are not true? If that is your intent, I am not playing...

[knarf]

C'mon now ... YOU accused me of being Arminian, I obviously disagree and I asked a couple of generic questions that in no way should have incited you

IF TULIP is a correct theology, I ask simply ... how can I know I am one of the elect ?

And if I CAN know, when do I know it ?

[kosciusko51]

So you believe in unlimited atonement, which means that all are saved?

[kosciusko51]

Jesus says, "WHOSOEVER WILL may come"

Correct. But only the elect have the will to come. The problem is not the will, it is nature. The sinful man does not will to follow God, only those whose nature has been changed by the Holy Spirit will come.

[kosciusko51]

So do you believe in unlimited atonement, meaning that all are saved?

[knarf]

So because I willed in 1981 I am an elect ?

[kosciusko51]

So because I willed in 1981 I am an elect ?

I don't know well enough to answer that, but God does!

When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin; and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.

All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death, in which they are by nature to grace and salvation, by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and, by His almighty power, determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ: yet so, as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.

This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, who is altogether passive therein, until, being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit, he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it.

... Others, not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet they never truly come unto Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men, not professing the Christian religion, be saved in any other way whatsoever, be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature, and the laws of that religion they do profess. And to assert and maintain that they may, is very pernicious, and to be detested.

[kosciusko51]

I don't know you well enough to answer that ...

[knarf]

You’re not part of the equation

[Dutchboy88]

"And if I CAN know, when do I know it ?"

The same way Paul did. If you disagree with being an Arminian, please enlighten us as to your persuasion. A middle ground? And, "...if you have the Son, you have the life." John.

[Greetings_Puny_Humans]

It is good you articulated TULIP so people can see the perverseness of it as a doctrine JW's are TULIPians (144,000 ... same thing only different)

This is significant slander. JWs believe they will get into heaven by their own merits. Reformed believers confess that we are not saved by any of our merits, or by the free determination of our will, but by the grace of God alone. There is no room for boasting here of any kind, and it is entirely biblical:

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Rom 9:6-16)

"But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." (Joh 6:64-65)

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God." (Joh 8:43-47)

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

[Gamecock]

If you rely on Jesus and Jesus alone for your salvation, you are elect.

The non-elect have no desire to come to Jesus.

[Tao Yin]

So do you believe in unlimited atonement, meaning that all are saved?

Unlimited atonement does not mean all are saved. It means all are offered salvation.

1 Timothy 2:4 [God our Savior] desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord ... is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

As we live in time, it is difficult to understand God who it not constrained by time. Human reasoning fails.

I know that I am saved because I have heard God's word and believed.

How do you know if you are saved? With the theory of limited atonement you run into a problem as you can never be sure if Christ died for you. You can not share the gospel with assurance. You can only tell someone that Christ died for them if God chose them for salvation.

Reading the parables of Jesus, you can plainly see that limited atonement is foolishness. All were invited to the wedding. The seed was cast everywhere.

With the seed specifically, the good news would be a lie if Jesus didn't die for everyone.

John 1:29b Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

The reasoning of limited atonement is foolish. From some website "If Jesus actually stood in my place and bore my sin on the cross as the Bible teaches, then I can never be punished for that sin." Wrong. Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life.

The website continues, "In order for Christ's atonement to truly be a substitutionary or vicarious atonement, then it must actually secure a real salvation for all for whom Christ died." Wrong again. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

And more, "If Christ acted as a real and true substitute for those for whom He died, then all for whom He died will be saved." Wrong, wrong, wrong. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

And finally, "To say that Christ died a vicarious death in the place of all sinners but that not all sinners will be saved is a contradiction." Still wrong. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that if Jesus dies for you, then you are saved. You are letting your human reasoning get in the way. let the one who desires take the water of life without price

[kosciusko51]

So, if the offer is made, and it is up to man to choose or not to choose, then there is no hope in salvation, as one could change their choice.

If my salvation is up to God, then I have assurance.

[kosciusko51]

Besides, the ones who believe are those chosen by God.

[kosciusko51]

Finally, your interpretation makes the atonement only effective for those who believe as well. Otherwise, all would be saved.