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To: NYer; daniel1212; Elsie
The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250.

Since the OP made this an Open Discussion Thread, I will add a comment also:

1. 200-300 is about when many of the pagan customs were incorporated into Catholicism.
2. No Jewish or Christian prayer is ever recorded in Scripture that addresses anyone but God.
3. No record of an Apostle or church leader before 100 AD ever praying to Mary or a departed saint.
4. No command to pray to a departed saint exists in Scripture.
5. No teaching in Scripture that a departed saint can hear a prayer from earth.
6. No evidence in Christian writings or secular writings or art can demonstrate any believer did this before 100 AD.

9 posted on 04/29/2017 8:52:36 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

Also, it really amuses me when a protestant is discounting something that happened AD200-300 because it’s so far removed from the time of the apostles. It’s only another 1250 years or so until the protestant churches arrived.


13 posted on 04/29/2017 9:41:11 AM PDT by nobamanomore
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
1. Evidence?

2. You seem to be interpreting "prayer" to exclusively mean "worship", which is a common source of misunderstanding between Catholics and Protestants. "Prayer" in general in older English and even current dictionary English means to entreat, to implore, from a root word for "to ask", i.e. to ask a favor. There are plenty of examples of prayers in this sense in both Jewish and Christian Scripture. For example, Paul frequently prays (in this sense) for his readers to pray for him. Examples include Romans 15:30-31, Colossians 4:3-4, and 2 Thessalonians 3:1.

3. See Revelation 5:8 and 8:3. And why are you arbitrarily choosing a 100 AD cutoff date when you're relying on writers from after that period for your manuscripts of Scripture and your information about what was going on before 100 AD? How do you explain the fact that Catholic Marian doctrine is already prevalent in 2nd-century Church Fathers with direct lineage from the Apostles such as Justin Martyr and Irenaeus?

4. No command, but again, there are requests and commands to pray for each other, and the practice of specifically praying to departed saints is referred to in Revelation and is universal throughout the early Church. Moreover, no prohibition to pray to a departed saint exists before the 16th century. This prohibition is one of several novel, un-Biblical, unprecedented doctrines to emerge from the radical wing of the Reformation.

5. In addition to Revelation: "He is not the God the dead, but the living." "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses. . ." And there is no teaching in Scripture that saints can't hear a prayer from earth.

6. See above, for starters.

15 posted on 04/29/2017 9:53:48 AM PDT by Fedora
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

What is it about Protestants that make them think that Catholics give a d*** what they think about the Catholic Church?


34 posted on 04/29/2017 12:09:17 PM PDT by BlessedBeGod (To restore all things in Christ. ~~~~ Appeasing evil is cowardice.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

....And why make such a BIG DEAL over it?


36 posted on 04/29/2017 12:24:53 PM PDT by Biggirl ("One Lord, one faith, one baptism5" - Ephesians 4:5)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
No Jewish or Christian prayer is ever recorded in Scripture that addresses anyone but God.

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke, Catholic chapter sixteen, Protestant verses nineteen to thirty one,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

61 posted on 04/29/2017 6:10:19 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
1. 200-300 is about when many of the pagan customs were incorporated into Catholicism. 2. No Jewish or Christian prayer is ever recorded in Scripture that addresses anyone but God. 3. No record of an Apostle or church leader before 100 AD ever praying to Mary or a departed saint. 4. No command to pray to a departed saint exists in Scripture. 5. No teaching in Scripture that a departed saint can hear a prayer from earth. 6. No evidence in Christian writings or secular writings or art can demonstrate any believer did this before 100 AD.

More accurately,

1. 200-300 is about when some pagan customs progressively began to be incorporated into Catholicism.

2. No Jewish or Christian prayer to Heaven is ever recorded in Scripture that addresses anyone but God.

3. No record of an Apostle or church leader before 100 AD shows them ever praying to Mary or a departed saint in Heaven.

4. No command to pray to a departed saint or angel in Heaven exists in Scripture.

5. Scripture nowhere shows or teaches that departed saints can hear prayers from earth.

6. There is no evidence in Scripture or in secular writings or art can demonstrate any Biblical believer did this before 100 AD.

92 posted on 04/29/2017 7:26:26 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; daniel1212
All those points are true, but for some, the Scriptures don't define their faith and they have the freedom to permit and encourage things outside of the revealed word. There are even a few tenets that are based entirely upon what "could have" or "might have" happened.

If Catholics or Orthodox want to have their own special traditions, relics, statuary, icons, prayers, songs, liturgies, etc., I really don't care. I'm not a member of their ecclesial community. But when some try to assert that "they" are the only true church and whatever they believe or teach about such extra stuff MUST be accepted by anyone who calls themselves a Christian, I think we should speak up if for no other reason than to say WHY we don't accept some of those extra things. Catholics shouldn't get offended when an OPEN Religion Forum thread is posted like this and people add their thoughts on a topic. I'm pretty sure if a non-Cath posted a thread discussing why we don't pray to dead "saints", there'd be plenty of Catholics defending why they do. Those with thin skins don't need to be on OPEN threads anyway. It's too bad that it takes threads like this to expose them.

112 posted on 04/29/2017 10:40:26 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
3. No record of an Apostle or church leader before 100 AD ever praying to Mary or a departed saint

Isn't that more commonly called necromancy?

113 posted on 04/29/2017 10:56:51 PM PDT by Mark17 (Genesis chapter 1 verse 1. In the beginning GOD....And the rest, as they say, is history)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
There you go again: USING facts from HISTORY to try and make yer point.

Next thing ya know; Rome's Mary will be getting all KINDS of adjectives and phrases being used to describe her; NONE of which are biblical!


 
The way it's written:
 
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship.
 
 
 
The way Rome teaches it:
 
Galatians 4:4-5
But when the set time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a....
 
Co-Redemptrix, 
Ark of the Covenant,
Cause of Our Joy,
Cause of our Salvation ,
Comfort of the Afflicted,
Destroyer of Heresy,
Ever-virgin ,
Favoured Daughter of the Father,
Gate of Heaven,
God-bearer,
Health of the Sick,
Help of Christians,
Holy Mary,
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of Virgins,
House of Gold,
Joy of the Just,
Majesty,
Mirror of Justice,
Morning Star,
Most Holy,
Mother Admirable,
Mother Inviolate,
Mother Most Amiable,
Mother Most Chaste,
Mother Most Pure,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of Divine Grace,
Mother of God,
Mother of Good Counsel,
Mother of Mercy,
Mother of Orphans,
Mother of Our Creator,
Mother of Our Redeemer,
Mother of Sorrows,
Mother of the Church,
Mother of the Poor,
Mother of the Word,
Mother Thrice Admirable,
Mother Undefiled,
Mystical Rose,
Nova Eva (the New Eve),
Our Lady of Compassion,
Our Lady of Confidence,
Our Lady of Victory,
Our Lady, Star of the Sea,
Our Mother of Perpetual Help,
Queen Assumed Into Heaven,
Queen Conceived Without Original Sin,
Queen of All Saints,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Families,
Queen of Heaven,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Peace,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of the Most Holy Rosary,
Queen of Virgins,
Ravisher of Hearts,
Refuge of Sinners,
Seat of Wisdom,
She Who Shows the Way,
Singular Vessel of Devotion,
Spiritual Vessel,
Spouse of the Holy Spirit,
Tabernacle of the Lord,
Temple of the Most Holy Trinity,
Throne of Wisdom,
Tower of David,
Tower of Ivory,
Treasure House of God's Graces,
Untier of Knots,
Vessel of Honor,
Virgin God-bearer,
Virgin Most Faithful,
Virgin Most Merciful,
Virgin Most Powerful,
Virgin Most Prudent,
Virgin Most Renowned,
Virgin Most Venerable          born under the law, to HELP redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship; sooner or later; and not spend TOO much time in Purgatory.
 


122 posted on 04/30/2017 4:38:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion; Mad Dawg; GreyFriar

Rev 8:

…3Then another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose up before God from the hand of the angel. 5Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were rolls of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.…


166 posted on 04/30/2017 10:12:00 AM PDT by xzins (Retired US Army chaplain. Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory.)
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