Posted on 05/09/2017 8:08:13 AM PDT by Salvation
Oh, I happened to re-read your post and noticed that you think we “worship” Mary. We don’t worship Mary, we ask her to pray for us.
What makes you think we worship her? (I am asking nicely, not sarcastically or anything.)
The Fifth Marian Dogma when approved will make it crystal clear to all that Mary is indeed worshipped in Roman Catholicism.
Please attend to the difference between Dulia (Honor to angels and saints), Hyperdulia (Honor to the highest saint), and Latria (Adoration), --LINK which is different from the first two, not only in degree but in kind.
To ignore this is to ignore what Catholics actually believe and practice, and to attribute to them something (idolatry) which is untrue. This has been the basis for repeated moral defamation, perhaps because of failure to grasp essential distinctions between analogous but different things.
Thank you for this review.
When Catholics stop making idols of her, praying TO her, consecrating their whole being to her, invoking her as mediatrix, co-redemptrix, advocate, etc, you might have a point.
Please attend to the difference between Dulia (Honor to angels and saints), Hyperdulia (Honor to the highest saint), and Latria (Adoration), --LINK which is different from the first two, not only in degree but in kind.
Though not supported by the NT and often rejected in the NT.
The Catholic would do well to heed the words and example of John.
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” Rev 22:8-9 NASB
Any lurkers interested in an accurate Catholic view could go straight to the Catechism (LINK) (searchable by keyword) or (if you want) google keywords like
and click through to get volleys of this stuff.
This note is for lurkers; that is, any who, hopefully, have ears to hear.
They're ignored as they are not supported by the revealed Word we call the Bible.
Any lurkers interested in an accurate Catholic view could go straight to the Catechism (LINK) (searchable by keyword) or (if you want) google keywords like
Any readers interested in the Christian view should open their Bible and read.
I also recommend gotquestions.org as a resource explaining the differences between Christianity and Roman Catholicism.
Lastly and most importantly, ask God to give you insight into this issue and all of the others discussed on these threads. He will answer because He promises He will answer.
Start with “I”, not “we”.
First, if all our statues were idols, then we would be worshipping the statues, not Mary.
Just as non-Catholic Christians often have a Cross in their homes and churches to remind them of the Resurrection, so we have things to remind us of many aspects of our faith. Neither your Crosses nor our statues are idols in any way.
When we pray to Mary, we ask for her prayers. Look at the Hail Mary:
Hail Mary, full of grace! The Lord is with thee << Luke 1:8, with the addition of her name
Blessed art thou amongst women << Luke 1:42, with the addition of the name of Jesus
And the rest is a request for prayer: Holy Mary, (you admit she was a holy person?) Mother of God (Luke 1:43) pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death, Amen.
So we appeal to Mary only for her prayers. She cannot save us, she can only intercede for us, but I see prayer requests from non-Catholics all the time: Please pray for my mother, who is very I’ll; Please pray for my friend, who is facing foreclosure; etc.
Why should we not ask the greatest prayer warrior of all creation to pray for us? Why should we not ask Mary, whom Christ honored as His mother, to intercede with Him for us as she interceded for the host of the wedding at Cana?
You mention her titles: Mediatrix, Co-redemptrix, Advocate. The last one is actually Advocatrix, and the second is co-Redemptrix.
Note that we always maintain those titles in a very feminine form. That is to maintain the subordinate role she plays in each of these roles of Christ. IOW, she is more like a secretary or enlisted person than a full partner.
The reason for the co-Redemptrix configuration is that she is involved only as a human. Redemptrix remains capitalized because the task which she aided by accepting God’s request can be accomplished only by Christ.
The scapular is a voluntary spiritual aid. Like a set of weights or rowing machine, it only works if you work it, as they say ;)
Moreover, what Mary promised was that those who died wearing it would be taken to Heaven from Purgatory the Saturday after their death. This means that those who are not going in the right direction will not be wearing it when they die, it doesn’t offer a guarantee for wearing it. This promise, btw, is not officially approved by the Church.
And the rest is, as I mentioned before, like swearing fealty to a duke or earl fighting for the King as one’s commanding officer. It in no way detracts from one’s fight for the King, it just means that one is committing to a certain position under the King.
This makes a lot of sense if you consider that we are fighting a war against powers and principalities. We all need to work together.
Let us pray for each other.
Yet we have no examples of praying TO created beings, nor building idols of them nor kneeling before them nor assigning them false titles, nor admonitions to consecrate ourselves wholly to them or to build shrines to them as we see in Roman Catholicism.
In the NT we have quite the opposite.
When Cornelius fell before Peter, Peter told him to get up for he was just a man.
25When Peter entered, Cornelius met him, and fell at his feet and worshiped him. 26But Peter raised him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am just a man.” Acts 10:25-26 NASB
When John fell down to worship the angel the angel told him to get up and worship only God.
8I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. 9But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” Revelation 22:8-9 NASB
When the Magi came they recognized the Child and who did they kneel before and worship? The astute reader will note they did not kneel before Mary to worship her. They worshiped the Child...Jesus.
11After coming into the house they saw the Child with Mary His mother; and they fell to the ground and worshiped Him. Then, opening their treasures, they presented to Him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. Matthew 2:11 NASB
Prayer is never directed to a created being in the NT. It is directed to God.
The New Testament calls the Holy Spirit our Advocate...Roman Catholicism calls Mary Advocatrix.
The New Testament calls Jesus the one mediator between God and Man. Roman Catholicism invokes Mary as mediatrix.
The New Testament calls Jesus our Redeemer for He is the One Who shed His blood for us. Roman Catholicism calls Mary Co-redemtrix.
For every position of the NT involving the Holy Spirit or Jesus, Roman Catholicism has elevated a created being to an opposite position of these two. Upon closer inspection of Catholic writings one could argue Mary has replaced Jesus in some aspects.
As Jesus was a virgin and remained so Roman Catholicism insists Mary was a virgin and remained so in spite of numerous passages to the contrary in the NT.
As Jesus taught His disciples to pray to the Father, Roman Catholicism teaches their members to pray TO Mary.
The "Rosary", when performed correctly contains 53 prayers to Mary compared to six "Our Father" prayers.
Roman Catholicism teaches an apparition appeared and delivered a message that whoever wore a piece of cloth would be saved from the Hell-fire.
The NT teaches that those who believe in Jesus will have eternal life.
There's more that could be written. But this is sufficient for now.
The New Testament is squarely against Roman Catholicism and its worship of Mary.
I love how Catholics disavow this when it's brought to light.
This was the message the apparition gave to St. Simon.
Our Lady gave St. Simon a scapular for the Carmelites with the following promise, saying : Receive, My beloved son, this habit of thy order: this shall be to thee and to all Carmelites a privilege, that whosoever dies clothed in this shall never suffer eternal fire .... It shall be a sign of salvation, a protection in danger, and a pledge of peace.
Based on the information below it looks like the RCC has endorsed this.
Many popes and saints have strongly recommended wearing, the Brown Scapular to the Catholic Faithful, including St. Robert Bellarmine, Pope John XXII, Pope Pius Xl, and Pope Benedict XV. For example, St. Alphonsus said: "Just as men take pride in having others wear their livery, so the Most Holy Mary is pleased when Her servants wear Her Scapular as a mark that they have dedicated themselves to Her service, and are members of the Family of the Mother of God."
Pope Pius XII went so far as to say: "The Scapular is a practice of piety which by its very simplicity is suited to everyone, and has spread widely among the faithful of Christ to their spiritual profit." In our own times, Pope Paul VI said: "Let the faithful hold in high esteem the practices and devotions to the Blessed Virgin ... the Rosary and the Scapular of Carmel" and in another place referred to the Scapular as: "so highly recommended by our illustrious predecessors." http://www.apostolic-carmel.org/scapular.htm
For instance, when Cornelius "fell before" Peter, Peter said not to worship him because he is just a human bring. However, dozens of times in the OT, people kneel or even prostrate themselves toward priests, kings and prophets (e.g. Abraham and David), holy places (e.g. Jerusalem, the Temple) and holy things (e.g. the Ark of the Covenant) and they are not rebuked; in fact their piety is praised.
This is because they meant to signify dulia (honor), not latria (adoration).
The Bible illustrates this difference many times.
Please note these important distinctions. It is s failure to distinguish one from the other which leads to the wrong-headed accusation that Catholics offer adoration to Mary.
I'm out the door literally now, and cannot continue this catechesis.
Peace be with you.
Catholics live in the OT. It’s as if parts of the NT don’t exist.
thye Spanish Mass in my parish is at 12:00...they brin in keyboards, a full drum set, guitars, etc....it is really a party atmosphere !!!!
The Catholic church is the ONLY Christian church with the WHOLE truth....and Mary is not needed for salvation....Jesus is.
the incidence of abuse among teachers, protestant ministers, scout leaders, etc. was MUCH greater than Catholic priests...not making an excuse, just pointing out reality.
You'd base your eternal salvation based on who's Pope ???????
Sure she is, our Heavenly Mother....you don't have to believe it, don't have to accept it.....but it IS.
wrong again...Catholicism is the church that Jesus personally founded and while we certainly respect His mother, we do not rely on her for salvation.....that's Jesus' job.....
But why was the harsh spotlight put on the Church and not on these other non-Catholic sources instead you would think?
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