Posted on 09/19/2017 1:03:41 PM PDT by SubMareener
You made the false prediction. Do you not recognize that??
We can examine the Hebrew word “daily” to see how it is used elsewhere in scripture. Daily sacrifice (hattamid) is used 24 times: http://biblehub.com/hebrew/hattamid_8548.htm . How many times does the word refer to daily sacrifices? Take a guess. ALL OF THEM! Bread, grain, oil, drink, meat, showbread are all connected throughout Numbers and Nehemiah where the word is used in addition to Daniel.
The word “daily” in the Daniel passages, like all other places in the Bible, is ALWAYS used of the daily or continual sacrifice in the holy place. It is NEVER used to refer to something else.
***
The truth never changes. Which sheds some light on the problem with the "laws of the Medes and the Persians", which "altereth not". Ensnared by their own definition of truth. Or why Achashverosh had to supersede/trump his own decree, the one that Haman had paid for with 10,000 talents. Daniel tossed into the lion's den, same issue.
The establishment is no different today. It thinks that once its decrees go out, they are settled law, settled science, and/or settled doctrine.
Compare to a pair of scissors, because once the scissors have spoken, there's nothing more to say.
However,
The rock beats the scissors:
A player who decides to play rock will beat another player who has chosen scissors ("rock crushes" — or sometimes "blunts" — scissors"), but will lose to one who has played paper ("paper covers rock"); a play of paper will lose to a play of scissors ("scissors cut paper").
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock%E2%80%93paper%E2%80%93scissors
SubMareener, many of us have been warning you for months about the shame and ridicule that would result when your claims proved wrong.
You did not listen. You insisted you were right, and we were all wrong.
Instead of asking God to rebuke others, perhaps now would be a good time for YOU to do some soul searching and not try to brush this off as a minor mistake.
People make mistakes. But you chose to put so much at stake on this claim.
These false claims, like many others out there, have given an opportunity for unbelievers to mock and ridicule believers. You contributed to that.
Now would be a good time to show some humility.
I’ve had to admit to being wrong numerous times on this forum over the years. It is time for you to man up and admit your error, and take some time to see why you erred rather than rushing headlong into more error.
Proverbs 28:13
He who covers his sins will not prosper,
But whoever confesses and forsakes them will have mercy.
Rabbi Steve Cioccolanti has just released a statement on this, and I stand with him on this. ;-)
You Can’t Handle the TRUTH about REV 12 Sign & Star of Bethlehem | “Nothing Happened” on Sep 23
Welcome to the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Buckle up, it is going to be a rocky ride.
“Once upon the Mount of Olives, they were more direct, though they did not realize then that Jesus had referred to TWO DIFFERENT time periods and destruction of the Temple in two separate epochs.”
I agree. Some parts of these passages refer to events in 70 A.D. Some parts refer to the end of the world which has not arrived. And, interestingly, there is some overlap. Like the destruction of the temple, there appear to be some things that are repeated.
“They thought they could be more direct by asking about the end of the Age, yet they did not yet realize the ‘Age’ was just opening, the Church/Ekklesia Age.”
I agree with a minor clarification. As you have indicated, the disciples did not quite comprehend some of the basic things we take for granted now. They did not grasp that Christ was going to literally die and rise again. They did not know He was leaving to Heaven. So what we understand as His second coming is not what they had in mind when they asked these questions. At least not in total. Only after the fact did they understand the ramifications of these prophecies.
When we discuss the end of the world / age, we are not talking about a dispensation of time. Dispensation is oikonomia in the Greek. World is aionos. It is not the end of the earth, or the end of a dispensation, but the end of the world or end of the age. The Devil is called the god of this world (aionos). We are discussing the end of this world system, corrupted and controlled by Satan.
“During the Church Age we do not need or get signs of the imminent return of Jesus.”
Hebrews 10:25
not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
According to scripture, we can see the day approaching. This can not be signless.
There is no definitive passage or text that distinguishes the return of the Lord at the end of the Great Tribulation, as described in the Olivet Discourse, from the rapture of the Church. Yes, Paul did reveal the mystery of what would happen to the bodies of living believers. And the idea of being caught up to meet the Lord in the air is a New Testament concept. The Old Testament revealed there would be a resurrection of the dead and a final judgment.
The pre-trib position is argued circumstantially based on dispensations. But dispensations are based on the Bible. It is incorrect to assume that what God is doing in the Church must end before He can also fulfill His covenant promises to Israel. There were several decades in which the early church was operating simultaneously with the temple sacrifice. The early church and apostles gathered at the temple in some cases. The Jewish followers of Christ also participated in some of the temple sacrifices. So it is possible that God will continue the dispensation of the Gospel of Grace into Daniel’s seventieth week. Dispensationalism does not prohibit this.
I believe it makes more sense dispensationally that the Church will be raptured when the remnant of Israel, the 144,000, are sealed in Revelation 7. This appears to represent Israel’s national repentance in keeping with the Daniel 9 prophecy.
Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
“When the group got to the Mount of Olives they tried again to get a clear prophecy of ‘the end’, still believing they were not two events separated by two thousand years but only one event. Jesus refers them to the destruction of Jerusalem, which happened in 70 AD, then He refers them to the events prophesied by Daniel.”
Other than the minor issue of where they were when the questions were asked, I agree. It is possible that Luke describes questions which were asked at the temple and later repeated at the mountain. But I don’t think it is likely. Either way though, there is a distinction of events as you described.
“1 Thess 1:9&10 ...
9 For they themselves relate of us, what manner of entering in we had unto you; and how you turned to God from idols, to serve the living and true God. 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven (whom he raised up from the dead,) Jesus, who hath delivered us from the wrath to come.”
Yes, salient point. We both agree that the rapture includes being rescued from God’s wrath. The various views on the timing of the rapture must agree with this, but disagree with what constitutes undergoing God’s wrath. For the pre-wrath position, that I hold, I believe the wrath of God begins when the Great Tribulation has ended and Christians have been raptured out.
The promise in the above passage is not to escape tribulation. The Thessalonians were well acquainted with tribulation and persecution:
1 Thessalonians 1:6
And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit,
1 Thessalonians 2:14
For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans.
1 Thessalonians 3:3-4
that no one should be shaken by these afflictions; for you yourselves know that we are appointed to this. For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.
2 Thessalonians 1:4-5
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure, which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer.
But notice what Paul says after this:
2 Thessalonians 1:6-8
Since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This makes perfect sense in a pre-wrath rapture. All Church-age believers experience tribulation and persecution. The last generation of Church-age believers experience the Great[est] Tribulation. God repays tribulation to our tormentors with the wrath of His fiery indignation in the Day of the Lord. But we, escaping divine wrath, come out of the Great Tribulation, and enter into the rest of our Lord.
A pre-trib rapture does not fit here. Isn’t this the rapture? Paul says the Thessalonians will enter into rest when the Lord comes. So this MUST be the rapture. But he also says God will repay their tormentors with fire when He comes. That is not how the pre-trib timeline is presented. The pre-trib view does not describe holy angels arriving with Jesus to pour out fire on the wicked. However that does fit the pre-wrath paradigm.
“This is a Parody about NOTHING HAPPENED after Biblical end time signs. Mockers have waited till the 24th September to make snarky remarks we all anticipated: ‘NOTHING HAPPENED’. Pastor Steve has been waiting to mock the mockers!”
I never said that the sign in the heavens was not happening. I never said it was not significant. I never mocked the scriptures.
Contrarily, I have been an ongoing advocate to repent. We do not have to wait until a sign appears in the sky to proclaim this. And, in fact it is what I advocated to you all along and continue to do so.
It is not those of us who are warning against adding to scriptures and making claims beyond what has been revealed, who are mockers. But you have made a mockery of the holy things by making claims that were unfounded and now proven to be false.
“Welcome to the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Buckle up, it is going to be a rocky ride.”
As I have said all along, the sign in the sky may be what John was describing. Yes, it does seem to match part of the description. However, notably absent is the dragon. And even if the dragon is identified, this does not prove that we have entered into Daniel’s seventieth week.
The definitive proof of being in Daniel’s seventieth week is what happens in the middle.
God has allowed you to embarrass yourself because of your stubborn persistence in claiming He revealed something to you that He did not. And by failing to humble yourself even now, you reject God’s grace for healing and forgiveness.
I will continue to watch for the additional signs of Christ’s soon return. And I will confidently expect His return as He promised. I will, to the degree God provides and enables by His grace, prepare for the times to come. But I’m not going to abandon a stedfast belief for every new “wind of doctrine” that blows through the church, claiming some unique, divine insight.
God will be vindicated. You will not. Not on this matter, at least. Instead you have been proven wrong. You need to admit that.
You are instead still arguing and telling us to wait and see that you are right. We see that you were wrong on the most significant claim you’ve made. Nothing else on the issue you say is credible at this point. We don’t need your explanations. We can go to the Bible for ourselves and read it.
You’re now saying the same thing I was telling you: wait and see.
Now, what you should be saying is “I was wrong.” Read my tagline. It was written for those who have your mindset. Until you can see and admit your error, you can not correct it. And your credibility will be gone until you do.
See you in the clouds, Bro.
Here are some more videos to watch and mock.
The Revelation 12 Signs Continue on Atonement! | The REAL Dragon Sign
https://youtu.be/-E9AX-WdNbg
INSIDE THE ARK - September 25, 2017
https://youtu.be/u9bvvof1Sv8
“See you in the clouds, Bro.”
Another Freeper I knew very well, who passed away a few years ago, used to say, “See you here, or there, or in the air.”
:-)
He leaned toward the pre-trib position mostly but called himself a “pan-tribulationist.” He said it will all pan out in the end.
The various sides can agree to watch and be ready, as well as wait patiently. If anyone happens to unexpectedly find himself or herself facing the antichrist and mark of the beast, don’t take it! Christ is coming back.
The author sums up the analytical interpretation thusly:
"There are a number of prophecies in the OT which have a primary application to the millenial kingdom or the eternal kingdom, but are fulfilled in part in the church age. Furthermore, there are prophecies which seem to focus on the immediate historical context of the prophet, yet there is a more complete fulfillment later.
This tendency to speak of events that are separated by time, as though they were not, is called the principle of double reference.
The tendency of scripture to reveal God's plan by way of double reference is consistent throughout the OT. For example, the promise of a "son" and a "house" to David (II Sam. 7) is fulfilled in his son Solomon, but not wholly. The full effect of the promise is not realized until the "Son of Man" and his kingdom."
This is a very useful instance of interpretive view, which its opponents claim to be a use of eisegesis, but it is not.
A powerful and thorough treatment of the subject is given in the volume:
Showers, Renald E., "MARANATHA OUR LORD COME: A Definitive Study of the Rapture of the Church," The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., Bellmawr NJ (1995) 269 pp.
This is still available from Amazon (click here), and quite reasonably priced, especially for used copies. I highly recommend it, especially for the edification of those who wish to oppose dispensational/Covenantal thinking regarding the Pre-Tribulation Harpadzo its impact on mmaturing the 21st-Century regenerated believer. A rose by any other name is still a rose, and Biblical history is still history, regardless of the amillennialists. (Check the Customer Reviews.)
Thank you for your labors and scholarly demeanor, that fends off flame wars!
Sorry, I forgot to list you for the Post #72 note.
The end of the world has been moved to October: http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2017/09/25/doomsday-october-bible/
When will you admit how stupid all of this numerology nonsense is?
But they won't, because it is only for the true believer soaked in Pre-Trib doctrine that has a genuine reason to be alert and watch.< p> My FRiend, don't ignore the beneficial and immanent view that the full trust in the Pre-Trib Harpadzo imposes on the testimony of the truly regenerated Christian and soul-warner. Quoting from author Renald Showers' explanation of its motivating effect:
The attitudes of many Christians
When confronted with thew issue of when the Rapture of the church will take place, many Christians respond, "Pretrib, midtrib, posttrib! So what? What difference does it make?" Others exclaim, "If it doesn't affect my salvation, I couldn't care less about when it happens!" Still others try to dodge the issue by stating either "I'm a pro-Rapturist--I'm for it!" or "I'm a pan-Rapturist--I believe it will all pan out!"
Does it really matter when Christ will come to take His bride to be with Him? Should the timing of the Rapture make any practical difference in the life of a Christian, or is the issue so insignificant that Christians shouldn't bother with it?
The Significance of the Issue
Thankfully, a person's salvation from the penalty of sin or assurance of spending eternity with the Lord is not determined by the issue of when the Rapture will take place. That does not mean, however, that Christians can ignore the matter of the timing of the Rapture without consequence.
In an earlier chapter entitled "THE IMMINENT COMING OF CHRIST," we noted that the Pretribulation Rapture view is the only view of the Rapture of the Church that comfortably fits the New Testament teaching of the imminent coming of Christ. It is the only view that can honestly say that Christ cold return at any moment, because it alone teaches that Christ will come to rapture the church before the 70th week of Daniel 9 or the Tribulation period begins and that nothing else must happen before His return. All the other Rapture views teach that at least part of the 70th week must transpire before Christ can come to rapture the church. Those views therefore destroy the New Testament teaching of the imminent coming of Christ.
In addition, the New Testament imminency passages examined in that chapter indicate that the imminent coming of Christ should have an incredible practical effect on the lives of individual Christians and the church as a whole. The fact that the glorified, holy Son of God could step through the door of heaven at any moment is intended by God to be the most pressing, incessant motivation for holy living and aggressive ministry (including missions, evangelism, and Bible teaching) and the greatest cure for lethargy and apathy. It should make a major difference in every Christian's values, actions, priorities, and goals.
Since the imminent coming of Christ is intended to have such a tremendous practical effect on the lives of individual Christians and the church as a whole, and since all the views of the Rapture except the pretriubulation view destroy the New Testament teaching of the imminent coming of Christ, we can conclude that the issue of when the Rapture of the church will take place really does matter.
=====
My brother, one really ought to take into very serious account not to be held by the Lord at His Bema Seat Judgment to have led another fellow-citizen of Heaven to slide into the careless attitude warned of by Jesus:
"The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him,
and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will
appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes" (Lk. 12:46-47 AV).
“Here are some more videos to watch and mock.”
I’m not a mocker. I’m an unlearner... for those willing to unlearn their error.
Proverbs 13:1
A wise son heeds his father’s instruction,
But a scoffer does not listen to rebuke.
I am open to instruction. I follow the example of the Bereans and search to see if what is being taught is true. I follow the command to not despise prophecies but prove all things.
The mocker / scorner / scoffer is someone who is unteachable and refuses to accept correction.
Therefore God turns scorner’s over to the reproofs of life until they humble themselves.
I watched the videos. I don’t have time to listen to every wind of doctrine blowing by, but I did listen to the entirety of these. The information and scholarship is actually not too bad. But the problem is in failing to distinguish between what is speculative and what is absolute.
Clearly the Lord did not return yet. Those who insisted that He would with absolute certainty have now been proven wrong. And the problem now remains that this fact weakens the credibility of all future claims based on the same arguments. Why were not these alternative speculations given their proper consideration BEFORE making bold, absolute claims?
You tell me how people are supposed to react when people boast and insist that they have special knowledge that others do not have about the time of Christ’s return. And when people check out these claims, they express concerns with some of the assumptions made. And when these are brought to the attention of the promoter of said ideas, he MOCKS and boasts that he will be proved right. And when the predictions fail, he claims it is no big deal and that they are still generally correct. And how should someone who tried to correct such obvious error do so when all correction is simply called “mocking?”
Maybe the real mockers are the ones who refuse to receive correction. That’s what my Bible says. How about your Bible?
Knowledge and revelations lead to pride. Pride leads to falling.
1 Corinthians 8:1-2
Now concerning things offered to idols: We know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. And if anyone thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know.
2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
Proverbs 16:18
Pride goes before destruction,
And a haughty spirit before a fall.
Even Paul, who did receive special revelations about these matters directly from God, was not exempt or immune from the dangers of pride. And so God used a thorn in his flesh to help protect him from falling into pride.
The signs we are seeing are real. They should cause believers to take specific Biblical actions. These are to watch, pray, gather with likeminded believers more frequently, and encourage other believers daily. These come straight from the Bible.
In the videos you linked I did not hear any of these admonitions. Perhaps I overlooked them. I did hear an admonition to spend time in repentance and to witness. Those are good things. However, if witnessing includes making foolhardy claims that end up being proved wrong, then such a witness is unlikely to be fruitful.
The Thessalonians were misled to believe they had entered the Day of the Lord. Paul corrected them by showing how there would first be a “falling away” and the man of sin, i.e. the antichrist, would be revealed by the abomination of desolation. This has not happened.
Now some in Thessalonica decided to quit their jobs, or stop working. This is probably connected to the wrong idea that they had entered into the Day of the Lord. Paul reproved this and admonished them to continue to work.
The popular teaching that the church must be raptured before God begins to restore Israel in Daniel’s seventieth week, is not based on any specific Biblical passage or text. Paul taught that antichrist would set up the abomination of desolation before the Day of the Lord, and he also taught that Christ would return at the Day of the Lord, as a thief. This indicates that the Church should expect to encounter the antichrist.
The early church fathers wrote of this and warned Christians to beware. They also warned of foolish speculations as to who the antichrist is until he is revealed.
I am encouraging friends and family members to consider making a fast. Spending a few days, maybe 3 or more, with no food and only water, would be a great way for believers to celebrate the time between the feast of trumpets and the day of atonement.
“My brother, one really ought to take into very serious account not to be held by the Lord at His Bema Seat Judgment to have led another fellow-citizen of Heaven to slide into the careless attitude warned of by Jesus.”
Cited:
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him,
and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will
appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself,
neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes (Lk. 12:46-47 AV
I certainly take seriously the possibility of wrongly advocating a doctrine on the rapture. It is only with careful and prayerful consideration over many years that the Lord delivered me from the doctrines of men to see the blessed hope of Christ’s return for what it is: deliverance from God’s wrath which shall be poured out on the earth after He has rescued His bride from the persecution of antichrist.
The passage you cited is in the context of being watchful of Christ’s return.
Luke 12:40
Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
This passage is very similar to what Christ taught in the Olivet discourse:
Matthew 24:44-51
Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But if that evil servant says in his heart, “My master is delaying his coming,” and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Interestingly, both passages seem to contextually refer to watching for Christ’s return AFTER the great tribulation:
Matthew 24:29-31
Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
So I certainly agree with the importance and priority of watching and being ready for Christ’s return. But I do not agree that this supports that His return can, at the present time, happen at any moment.
The necessity of being alert and watchful during the Great Tribulation for those expecting Christ’s return at the end of it demonstrates that you are incorrect in asserting that “only for the true believer soaked in Pre-Trib doctrine... has a genuine reason to be alert and watch.”
Those who slumber now will only slumber more deeply as the time approaches. This is why those of the day are to be awake.
Watching for the Lord’s return means being watchful of the signs of His coming which He gave to us in scripture. His return is not signless nor a surprise to the watchful believer. We are able to “see the Day approaching.”
The above passage imagines the servant who will anticipate the Lord “delaying His coming.” That is he is expecting the Lord’s return to be later than it turns out to be. However, there is another warning for those who might anticipate His return to be much sooner than it turns out to be:
Matthew 25:5
But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
Notice that the groom does arrive later than expected. Some were fully prepared. Others were only partially prepared.
Not knowing how soon or how long it will be before Christ’s return requires both watchful readiness and patiently waiting.
Those who believe that the rapture must happen before the Great Tribulation and the vicious reign of antichrist, may well become disillusioned when they find themselves facing him, being forced to choose between the mark of the beast or death. And in a time when trouble ensnares the inhabitants of the whole earth, some may feel that they have been lied to and that the Lord did not keep His promise.
However, Christ never promised that believers would be free of tribulation or persecution. Indeed these are certainties — not that they will not happen, but that they will.
2 Timothy 3:12
Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.
John 17:15
I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.
God will keep His elect through the Great Tribulation, and He will deliver us from the Day of Wrath.
The first several editions of the Bible, prior to the Douay-Rheims Bible translated 'apostasia' as 'the Departure', or ' a departure'. The Catholic authorities wanted the translation to read 'revolt, as in revolt against 'mother church'. With the Protestant Reformation the translation came to be 'falling away'.
I believe that we are seeing a great falling away in our epoch, as Christians fall into the 'every man did what was right in his own eyes' since 'there was no King in Israel' [Second Kings reference].
A deeper study into who are ‘the elect’ who will be protected during the great Tribulation and go alive into the Millenial Kingdom might be in order, for edification.
The Ekklesia have been tasked with spreading the Gospel of The Grace of God in Christ. ["How blessed are those who have never seen me and yet have believed." John 20:29]
God seals 144,000 'Jewish virgins' to preach the Gospel of The Kingdom during the Tribulation.
IF the Ekklesia were sharing the Gospel of Grace while the evangelization of the 144,000 is being proclaimed, it would cause confusion. Yet we read that out of the Tribulation come a number so great no man in John's day could number them, into Heaven and witnesses at the Marriage Feast, in Heaven.
That harvest does not sound like the product of confusion, as the tribulum renders the fruit from the stalks. Once the tribulum harvest is secured, then comes the winepress ...
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