Posted on 10/11/2017 8:39:37 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
When reading the Book of Job, I’m often struck by the similarities between Job’s friends and Joel Osteen. Granted, Job’s friends probably presented themselves in a much dourer manner than Osteen does. If not in their assumed scowls, it's the content of their unhelpful advice to Job that bears a similarity to the teachings of the smiling author of Your Best Life Now. More accurately, the words of Job’s friends are the opposite side of the same false coin held out by the message of self-idolatrous false-hope preached by Joel Osteen.
Many are familiar with the Biblical story of the ancient patriarch named Job. As way of a brief reminder of the first part of the story, after God allows Satan to afflict Job, three of the miserable man's friends show up. The Bible records, "They made an appointment to come together to come to show him sympathy and comfort (Job 2:11)."
Showing him sympathy and comfort apparently meant scolding him. However, Job rebuffs the lectures from each of his friends, but they persist.
The core of what Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar tell Job is that he needs to humble himself before God and recognize that he's a sinner who is being justly punished. Throughout their harangues, the three claim that the wicked suffer and the righteous live blessed lives. For them, Job's distress is proof that he is being punished by God for unrighteousness. If only he would say/do the right things, he could live his best life again once again be blessed by God.
Reprovingly, Eliphaz tells Job, "The wicked man writhes in pain all his day. ... Because he has stretched out his hand against God and defies the Almighty (Job 15:20, 25)."
Building on Eliphaz's claim, in chapter eighteen Bildad lists a series of unfortunate events, so to speak, and then concludes, "Surely such are the dwellings of the unrighteous, such is the place of him who knows not God (Job 18:21)."
At one point, during the midst of the back and forth between Job and his friends, Eliphaz pleads, "Agree with God, and be at peace; thereby good will come to you (Job 22:21)." His words echo Bildad's promise found in Job 8:5 -- "If you will seek God and plead with the Almighty for mercy, if you are pure and upright, surely then he will rouse himself for you and restore your rightful habitation. And though your beginning was small, your latter days will be very great."
If you haven't already picked up on the similarities between Job's friends and Joel Osteen, you are either unaware of the mega-pastor's teachings or you misunderstand the well-coifed charlatan. Or maybe you do understand Osteen, agree with him, and, hence, don't want to acknowledge that Joel Osteen basically equals Job's friends.
While expressed differently, the worldview of Osteen and the Book of Job's infamous trio is the same -- God is some form of a genie in the bottle, doling out goodies to those who respond the correct way.
The major difference between Osteen and Job's friends is that Osteen rarely mentions personal sin. For Osteen, when he writes -- "There is a seed inside you trying to take root. That’s God trying to get you to conceive. He’s trying to fill you with so much hope and expectancy that the seed will grow and bring forth a tremendous harvest. It’s your time. You may have been sick for a long time, but this is your time to get well. … You may be struggling financially, in all kinds of debt, but this is the time for promotion." -- he's saying that you're not being blessed because you aren't jumping through the right hoops.
For Osteen, jumping through the right hoops doesn't involve any repentance of personal sins or acknowledgment of one's failings before a Holy God. Osteen wants his followers to embrace the belief that if God is withholding blessings, it's because they don't have enough faith in themselves. At least Job's friends had a robust, albeit inappropriately and poorly articulated, view of personal sin. It was their understanding of God that was at the root of their problem. Osteen misunderstands God as well as the human condition.
In chapter one of Your Best Life Now, Osteen asserts, "Notice, God is always ready to do new things in our lives. He’s trying to promote us, to increase us, to give us more."
According to Osteen, God's plan involves good things in this life for you if only you'll believe in yourself enough. Have faith in you and God will bless you. And those blessings are of the material, temporal kind. Got it?
Except that's not how God works. In fact, that's kind of the point of the Book of Job.
Before getting to God's rebuke to Job and Job's friends, a brief reminder may be in order of how the events recorded in the book were kicked off.
In one of the most puzzled over passages in the Bible, Satan presents himself before God in chapter one. In verse eight, God asks Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"
Satan basically responds with the sputtering declaration that of course Job is faithful, look at everything that God has blessed him with. God then gives Satan permission to take away Job's health, family, and material possessions. Satan does, and that's when Job's three friends enter the picture.
Now, insert Osteen's claim that God "is trying to promote us" into the story of Job.
God's ways are God's ways, and those ways are beyond the comprehension of humans, unless God reveals Himself to humans. One of the things that God has revealed to those who put their faith in Jesus is that His plan is that they will be remade to conform to the image of Jesus. Frequently, but not always, that plan involves suffering and pain. Look at the life of the Apostle Paul, as well as the other Apostles. In fact, ask Christians suffering persecution in China if they're living their best life now. They'll probably say "yes," not realizing that the person who coined the phrase means things like good health, job promotions, and a bigger house (a bigger house is something he talks a lot about in his book).
Job's friends assumed that if Job were faithful, God would've given him bigger flocks and a larger family; when, in fact, that's not what was going on at all. God was working in Job's life for His own purposes and glory. Suffering is not due to lack of faith.
At the end of the book, God shows up and tells Job that humans have no right questioning God. Chapters thirty-eight through the end of the Book of Job are a demonstration of what it looks like for the Sovereign Creator of the universe to call out finite humans.
After dealing with Job, God turns to his Eliphaz and says, "My anger burns against you and against your two friends, for you have not spoken of me what is right (Job 42:7)."
Joel Osteen would do well to heed God's angry words to Job's three friends.
Well in the OT you know what happens to people coveting things that were entrusted to their care and they didn’t do right by it. Just saying.
“‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
The only thing Jesus guarantees us in this life is trouble but peace in the midst of it..
John 16:33 I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.”
Also, there's this.
Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
As far as the prosperity gospel....
Hebrews 11:32-38 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets—who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight. Women received back their dead by resurrection.
Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, so that they might rise again to a better life. Others suffered mocking and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword. They went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, mistreated—of whom the world was not worthy—wandering about in deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
ping
And likewise, have you personally interacted with Osteen enough to determine without a doubt that he is NOT a charlatan?
Are you saying that if someone accepts Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord at the end of an Osteen sermon that it isn’t valid?
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. As no one knows the heart, it's impossible to tell. Osteen doesn't even have enough backbone to state on TV that Jesus is the only way to God.
Even Benny Hinn had problems with that and while I am no fan of Hinn, he was right on about Osteen. First time I can ever recall agreeing with him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCQfTemtApQ
FWIW, I am suspicious of ALL prosperity gospel preachers and mega church pastors.
By their standards, Paul was a loser with weak faith and got it all wrong.
2 Corinthians 12:7-10 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
It's not coveting to point out the obvious and accusing someone of sin just because they are making a valid point to invalidate what they are saying is disingenuous.
There is NOWHERE in the NT that we are promised prosperity and success in our lives for being Christian. That is just appealing to the flesh, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life.
Can Osteen preach the beset life now to these guys?
I guess they didn't have enough faith, eh?
If that’s your worst problem, then you don’t know what trouble is.
Two Russian Christians Murdered by ISIS Because They Refused to Be Filmed Converting to Islam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3594127/posts
Where’s Osteen stand on this sort of thing? Oh, that’s right, he doesn’t talk about it does he?
So Jesus didn’t mean what He said in Luke 6:38?
We are shortly going to have to stand before Jesus and give an accounting for everything we have done. Joel Osteen will have to speak for himself. We all will have to speak for ourselves. Note: Jesus doesn’t grade on a curve. Your score doesn’t depend on what anyone else does.
As far as your verse, where does Jesus promise us that now in toe form of material prosperity?
Where did Jesus ever preach the prosperity gospel?
Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed.
2 Corinthians 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.
2 Corinthians 11:14-15 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one—I am talking like a madman—with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death. Five times I received at the hands of the Jews the forty lashes less one.
Three times I was beaten with rods. Once I was stoned. Three times I was shipwrecked; a night and a day I was adrift at sea; on frequent journeys, in danger from rivers, danger from robbers, danger from my own people, danger from Gentiles, danger in the city, danger in the wilderness, danger at sea, danger from false brothers; in toil and hardship, through many a sleepless night, in hunger and thirst, often without food, in cold and exposure. And, apart from other things, there is the daily pressure on me of my anxiety for all the churches.
2 Corinthians 12:7-10 So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about this, that it should leave me. But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me. For the sake of Christ, then, I am content with weaknesses, insults, hardships, persecutions, and calamities. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
So what are you going to do? Blackmail God with Scripture verses to force Him to do what you want and give you everything you want to make you happy and comfortable in this life?
Is that why God gave us promises in Scripture, to use to force His hand?
I was trying to save bandwidth. I had already posted that verse in this thread, so I guess you didn’t actually read this thread. I am sorry you haven’t had prosperity in your life. Or maybe you just haven’t recognized the blessings you have received.
I do recognize the blessings in my life.
Especially since He has blessed me with HIMSELF, and not stuff.
I have never seen such a shallow, entitlement minded mentality as that which exists within the church.
We have more than any 100 people ins some third world hell hole can imagine or want, and all we have is a church full of dissatisfied whiners who think they aren't prosperous unless they have perfect health, unfading beauty, live in a mansion, have their own airplanes and yatchs, and a fat Swiss bank account.
We in this country are ALL prosperous and these prosperity gospel preachers have so many duped into believing they are not.
And I am prosperous beyond what you know. You don't know my situation.
You'd do better not making so many assumptions about people. You know what they say about people who assume things.......
You do realize that if everyone lived like the Osteens, it would be average and no longer considered prosperous, don’t you?
Then what would be the new prosperous? They’d have to set the bar even higher.
And you know what? It would never been enough. There would always be the striving, the keeping up with the Joneses and a church full of people dissatisfied with what God Himself has chosen to give them and bless them with.
Never any gratitude.
Only *God, I need more. I want more. If you loved me, you’d give me _______. Don’t you love me? What am I doing wrong?* etc, etc.
Godliness with contentment is great gain and the prosperity gospel feeds on discontent.
Well, you are shortly going to be able to discuss this all with Jesus, and explain to Him how much discontent the prosperity gospel sowed. All that effort, and not a single soul was saved. 35,000 people in one church and not a Christian among them. Such a waste.
Must be the boils ...
I listen to a lot of different preachers on the radio and I've not heard that topic come up, but I'd probably change stations if it did. That's a bit outside of my sphere of influence or personal concern these days.
I listen to Osteen while driving and I find his material helpful for what I am dealing with.
Fwiw, I've never done an accounting of Lakewood's finances to know what they receive in donations, how much it costs to run that building or what work they do with their money and people.
I also don't know how much of his own money Osteen personally gives or to whom and I'm okay with not knowing.
I do listen to him while driving and I find his material to be very helpful for the things I'm dealing with.
Some people like to listen to upbeat self-help and motivational material while driving.
For me, Osteen's sermons work better. Ymmv, though, no doubt about that.
Don’t give a rats patootie, I simply do not like the way Olsteen preaches/looks or whatever. He reminds me of a sleazy used car salesman.
Or any televangelist preaching anything other than what’s in the Bible and go off on their own personal beliefs about prosperity, etc etc etc.
35,000 and you can’t guarantee that they are all saved either.
Putting your trust in someone named Jesus who is not the One from the Gospels will get you nowhere.
If they are using Jesus for the prosperity angle, for what they can get out of Him, I do indeed question their salvation.
I like worship music for much the same thing.
Thank you for the link.
That is fascinating and certainly a different perspective.
I saw some of his other stuff and am watching that too.
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