Posted on 10/31/2017 10:02:53 AM PDT by ebb tide
“So you finally reveal that Purgatory may exist.”
No, it doesn’t. There is no “may” about it. Christ made clear you either commit the slightest single sin and reap the reward of eternity in Hell, or you - as unavoidably sinful - are granted the full & complete atonement, rendering you pure for entry to Heaven. He never said anything amounting to “you didn’t repent, you weren’t redeemed, but you weren’t _that_ bad so we’ll just run you thru the Cosmic Washing Machine and clean you up - unlike that other guy, whose sins were SO [insert eye roll] bad that he’s just eternally outta here.”
You’re imputing a number of things on me which I’ve clearly declared the opposite of. Your reading comprehension needs work. (Especially if you won’t read a mere 95 sentences on the issue at hand.)
“Care to show where it does?”
Uh...the title maybe? You know: “Martin Luther Is Probably In Hell” might be a clue?
“I have read them”
Yet you act surprised when expressing the knowledge “at one point Luther believed in Purgatory”. If you read, or at least remembered, them then you’d know the whole point is a given.
“yet you seem to pick and choose Luther’s writings that you choose to either accept or reject.”
Given your increasingly apparent inability to comprehend what I’m writing (contending I’ve said what I took pains to say I’m not), I’m not surprised at what you “seem” to observe.
...and that being the case, I think the fun of this is getting pretty well drained out.
So to summarize what you may have misunderstood (how I have no idea):
- Luther believed in Purgatory, and thought the RCC was heretical about how residents thereof could get out
- Luther did, in later writings, discover that Purgatory is a heretical concept itself
- I absolutely reject the notion of Purgatory existing, because if it does it contravenes the existence of Hell (there being no Biblical reason why someone would go to one over the other)
- I _did_ read your four links
- and if you can’t even remember the relevance of Purgatory to the content of Luther’s 95 Theses, then there really isn’t any point whatsoever to continuing this discussion (on top of the fact you can’t seem to grasp what I’ve simply & plainly written).
‘twas fun. Cheers!
What part of “probably” do you not understand?
Can you definitely say Osam bin Laden or Hitler are in Hell?
May I safely say assume you won’t be praying for the Holy Souls this Thursday?
[hard to resist...]
“Can you definitely say Osam bin Laden or Hitler are in Hell?”
Why would they be, if Purgatory exists and can wash their sins away in a few million years (a mere blip vs eternity)?
Why would they need the prayers of an abject sinner like me? Not like they need help being scrubbed clean in the Cosmic Washing Machine, as they’re admittedly saints who have been redeemed by Christ’s sacrifice alone.
Do you not believe in your final judgement of Jesus Christ at your death? If not, how do you presume to read Christ's judgement, not your judgement, in the affirmative at that, before your death?
“a heretical act from a Catholic perspective”
The “Catholic perspective” is whatever their church hierarchy says it is. If they are okay with it, then wouldn’t it be YOU who was the heretic for dissenting?
“Do you not believe in your final judgement of Jesus Christ at your death? If not, how do you presume to read Christ’s judgement, not your judgement, in the affirmative at that, before your death?”
Of course I do.
And there’s no room for “Purgatory” therein.
I also believe you’re having a terrible time trying to comprehend what I’m writing.
That's nonsense. The Catholic Church has always had hereitcs; unfortunately this time its pope may also be one.
But who am I to judge?
“Why do you falsely accuse Catholics of believing only in two options at death: instant salvation or damnation?”
According to Catholic doctrine, “heretics” don’t go to purgatory, so this point is moot when speaking of that topic, isn’t it?
Looks like a protest against church at the time.
So do you believe you are already saved?
And, if so, there’s no way you can loose that salvation before your death? Before Christ’s Final Judgement?
Reads like a protest against church corruption at the time.
No. Heretics cannot validly "correct" faithful Catholics.
Same as Francis' protests against God's Church, His Commandments, the Sacraments, etc. at this current time, huh?
“So do you believe you are already saved? And, if so, there’s no way you can loose that salvation before your death? Before Christ’s Final Judgement?”
I believe God exists outside the constraints of time, seeing the totality of my existence & salvation (or lack thereof) as an “eternal present”. The notion of “already saved” and “can lose salvation” are only sensible within time-constrained thinking.
Per Reformation doctrine, we are all born into sin and incapable of choosing otherwise on our own initiative - hence those who are saved are (insofar as we can understand the concept) chosen by God for atonement. It’s not our choice, insofar as we as abject sinners simply won’t.
And there certainly isn’t some state of “not bad enough for Hell, but not good enough for Heaven yet, so spend some time in Purgatory to wash up.” Upon your demise, the Judgement is rendered one way or the other (not a third).
Splits in the Church go back to the 300-400’s with the Coptic Church breaking away. What happened 500 years ago was nothing new.
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