Posted on 06/23/2018 7:48:28 AM PDT by Salvation
“And what is “saving faith” compared to “faith alone?”
Saving faith is entrusting oneself to Christ alone. His payment, His sacrifice. His fulfillment of the Law. His perfection.
And never your own payment, works, worthiness, nor effort.
“Is faith that does not produce works saving faith?
All saving faith results in a new birth, and the new life of Christ within. It is the expression of His life that produces fruit. It is the Spirit that testifies to the soul of every true believer, that he belongs to Him.
If a life is barren, it falls into question whether it has the life of Christ. God knows. We can only observe.
“For, as you know, there are many who claim faith in Jesus Christ who continue to live in the sins that Paul warns that will exclude us from the kingdom of God.”
Ah, here I take it that you mean Roman Catholics, but of course it equally applies to Orthodox and all others.
“Are they saved?”
The better question Petrosius, is “were they really saved?”
Paul recognizes a group of believers who are living carnal lives, yet are believers.
He also warns church members to examine ourselves to see if we have real faith.
He also states that some sins are difficult to break free of and may lead to death - though the person is saved.
He also says he gave one believer over to Satan as discipline. He later commands the church to welcome him back after the discipline led him to repentance. Again, no statement that the believer wasn’t saved.
We also know that not all who call on the name of Christ are His.
The wheat grows with the tares. God separates them at harvest-time.
If a soul was saved, it was completely saved.
I think non-Catholics sometimes ascribe far more meaning to some of the “things” Catholics do than most Catholics. Then again, I think some Catholics play up those things as a reminder of “hey, we’re Catholic!”
And never your own payment, works, worthiness, nor effort.
Yes, by grace alone; how Catholic! I would like to point out a serious misunderstanding among Protestants about what Catholic believe is the relationship between faith and works. Catholics do not believe that we must add the merits of our own works to the saving work of Jesus Christ. How does a Catholic believe that he is saved? By asking for it. Salvation first comes through Baptism; no good works are required. After Baptism, if a person falls back into serious sin, then he restored to grace by repentance and and confession; he just asks for it! No good works are required. (For now let us hold off on the question of the nature and necessity of baptism and confession. This is a different question. The question at hand is the relationship between grace and works.) The good works that Catholics say are necessary for salvation are what is produced after being justified, the product of what you would call "saving faith," if I understand you correctly.
All saving faith results in a new birth, and the new life of Christ within. It is the expression of His life that produces fruit. It is the Spirit that testifies to the soul of every true believer, that he belongs to Him.
And this we Catholics call Sanctifying Grace.
“For, as you know, there are many who claim faith in Jesus Christ who continue to live in the sins that Paul warns that will exclude us from the kingdom of God.”
Ah, here I take it that you mean Roman Catholics, but of course it equally applies to Orthodox and all others.
You are not saying that there are not also Protestants who claim faith in Jesus Christ and who continue in lives of sin, are you?
We also know that not all who call on the name of Christ are His.
The wheat grows with the tares. God separates them at harvest-time.
So there can be no assurance that what the faith we proclaim is actually saving faith?
Actually Petrosius, ot it is not. To grace is added works. Things you must do.
Salvation does not come by grace plus anything. I would like to point out a serious misunderstanding among Protestants about what Catholic believe is the relationship between faith and works. Catholics do not believe that we must add the merits of our own works to the saving work of Jesus Christ.
So you do not believe in the Catholic concept of a treasury of merit that is doled out as you do various sacraments, etc.?
Salvation first comes through Baptism; no good works are required.
Never. If this were so, every wet person would be saved. They are not.
And this we Catholics call Sanctifying Grace.
This is not what the Bible teaches, regardless of what denominations call it.
You are not saying that there are not also Protestants who claim faith in Jesus Christ and who continue in lives of sin, are you?
No, I wrote, "Ah, here I take it that you mean Roman Catholics, but of course it equally applies to Orthodox and all others."
So there can be no assurance that what the faith we proclaim is actually saving faith?
Yes, there is assurance of salvation from the Scriptures (I John 5:11-13) and via the Spirit of God, who testifies to us that we are His.
I have assurance of salvation and am grateful for His indescribable gift.
If I die tonight, I will spend eternity with God in heaven, by His grace.
Best.
If I die tonight, I will spend eternity with God in heaven, by His grace.
Do you have the assurance that you will never fall into the sins that Paul says will exclude us from the kingdom of God? If so, how? There are many who have claimed faith in Jesus Christ you have. Many claimed the same faith as yours. Many had the same assurance as you. How can you be certain that you will not fall like them? Or does it not matter and Paul was a liar, that those who do such things will inherit the kingdom of God, as long as they have faith.
Matthew 3
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
“Do you have the assurance that you will never fall into the sins that Paul says will exclude us from the kingdom of God? If so, how?”
I hope I never fall into deep, unrepentant sin, but every sin I ever committed was paid for when the spikes went into wood and my Savior bled and died.
If it came to pass though...
I would stand before Him, empty-handed, smelling of smoke, but I would be saved as a Scripture testifies.
That said, my hearts desire is to hear, “well done, good and faithful servant.”
Best
Sad that we cannot agree on keeping the name of Jesus holy and used properly. That’s why I left it as an open thread. I thought we could agree on that.
So Paul was wrong, and those who do such things will inherit the kingdom of God?
“So Paul was wrong, and those who do such things will inherit the kingdom of God?”
No, It is (apparently) your understanding of what Paul meant that is wrong. I agree with all the Holy Spirit inspired.
• I am grateful for my salvation and my amazing Savior, that redeemed me, and now holds me securely in His hand.
• I am grateful for my Heavenly Father, that chose to sacrifice His only begotten Son to make me His child.
• I am grateful for the blessed Holy Spirit, that convicted me of sin, opened my eyes to the Gospel of Grace, and sealed me to the day of redemption and intercedes for me.
I wish salvation for you and all who don’t know their fate.
Best to you
That could explain why:
Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Name Changes in the Bible (Torah)
It gets really interesting in the part about Jacob's name change.
Whereas Abraham or Sarah were no longer referred to by their old names, the Torah continues to refer to Jacob as Jacob, even after his name was changed to Israel.6 The Torah alternates between the two names, sometimes calling him Jacob and sometimes Israel.
Saint Paul's word's do not seem hard to understand, as long as you do not come to them with preconceived Protestant conclusions:
Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.These words were written to those who had faith, not to unbelievers. There is no exception: "unless you have faith." Our Lord himself declared: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven." If one were to really believe the Bible then he must take these words as they are. I will accept what is written in the Bible, and not the man-made traditions of the Protestant reformers.
You would do an amazing service to yourself, if you would take time to outline the entire 6 chapters of Galatians. It would give you a keen understanding of the whole message and how the sections contribute to that whole.
That said, here is a short answer.
“Now the works of the flesh are obvious: immorality, impurity, licentiousness, idolatry, sorcery, hatreds, rivalry, jealousy, outbursts of fury, acts of selfishness, dissensions, factions, occasions of envy, drinking bouts, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.”
People who practice these kinds of sins are not true believers.
Again, if you examined the whole book, you would benefit, instead of picking out things that seem to say what you were taught.
Best
Agreed. If you were to read the entire Galatians without Protestant tradition you would see that it is about the relationship between faith and "works of the law," i.e. circumcision and the Mosaic Law, not between faith and the moral law. It is an attack against the Judaizers. This is why he mentions the Council of Jerusalem. Thus Paul's warning about those who persist in sin will not inherit the kingdom of God is not contrary to what he says about the works of the law. Paul's own summary:
It is those who want to make a good appearance in the flesh who are trying to compel you to have yourselves circumcised, only that they may not be persecuted for the cross of Christ. Not even those having themselves circumcised observe the law themselves; they only want you to be circumcised so that they may boast of your flesh. But may I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. For neither does circumcision mean anything, nor does uncircumcision, but only a new creation. Peace and mercy be to all who follow this rule and to the Israel of God. From now on, let no one make troubles for me; for I bear the marks of Jesus on my body. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen. (Galatians 6:12-18)
You are partly correct.
After you outline Galatians, I’d love to hear your conclusions.
Before seminary, I started to outline books of the Bible, verse by verse, paragraph by paragraph.
Later, I had to do every book in the OT and NT.
It was a lot of work, but fruitful work.
Chapter 1Standard greeting in which Paul reminds the Galatians of his apostolic authority, an authority that comes directly from God. The assertion of this authority will be important to counter those who are teaching another gospel. He also repeats the gospel declaration that Jesus gave himself up to rescue us from our sins. Is there anything else that you would wish to add?
1 Paul, an apostle not from human beings nor through a human being but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised him from the dead, 2 and all the brothers who are with me, to the churches of Galatia: 3 grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave himself for our sins that he might rescue us from the present evil age in accord with the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.
Ha!
Let me know when you’ve covered every verse of every chapter, arranged it in logical units of thought, found the key points and subpoints of each unit of thought, and find a theme for the whole book.
Then I’d love to hear what you learned.
Studying the scripture is a great thing, and seeing the structure is the first step - before you get to the rest.
I didn’t render any passage. I did not invent the Angelus. The history of the Angelus spans several centuries, but it was Pius V who codified the version we use today and it was that great Pope who encouraged the Catholics of Europe to pray it for the specific purpose of defeating Islam, which they did at a Lepanto and Vienna, with no help from the protestant brethren. None.
Go into any Catholic church and feel the presence of Jesus Christ in the tabernacle. Yes, we have “God in a box”, as one of my friends puts it who was once a Pentacostal but converted to Catholicism. It was God who decided to share Himself with us in this way. We did not invent the fact that Jesus is present under the form of bread and wine, He did, we are just being faithful, as is beautifully illustrated in John 6.
Well, yes Rome has invented this. Rome's version is not witnessed if read in context with the other accounts of the Lord's Supper.
Respect yes if it is earned. Worship no
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.