Posted on 08/23/2018 2:20:33 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
I'll continue to say it as long as the Lord allows me breath....context is your key to understanding the Scriptures.
This is the only place in the OT and NT where the term "holy water" is ever used. And, it is used for a specific purpose.
For the Roman Catholic to use eisegesis and attempt to make this a widespread belief in the New Testament is NOT supported by Scripture.....nor as previously shown, is it supported in Rome's "tradition".
Now, if the Roman Catholic wants to live under the Law, and it sure seems a lot of them do, there is nothing to stop them from doing so.
But if they're going to cite this one use for a specific purpose then they're going to have to be subject to ALL of the Law.....not just the parts they want.
Fortunately, the NT does not require us to live under the Law.
Nor do we see the use of holy water being used for what Rome is now using it for.
11 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 12 “Speak to the sons of Israel and say to them, ‘If any man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him, 13 and a man has intercourse with her and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband and she is [f]undetected, although she has defiled herself, and there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act, 14 [g]if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has defiled herself, or if a spirit of jealousy comes over him and he is jealous of his wife when she has not defiled herself, 15 the man shall then bring his wife to the priest, and shall bring as [h]an offering for her one-tenth of an [i]ephah of barley meal; he shall not pour oil on it nor put frankincense on it, for it is a grain offering of jealousy, a grain offering of memorial, a reminder of iniquity. 16 ‘Then the priest shall bring her near and have her stand before the Lord, 17 and the priest shall take holy water in an earthenware vessel; and [j]he shall take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put it into the water. 18 The priest shall then have the woman stand before the Lord and let the hair of the woman’s head go loose, and place the grain offering of memorial [k]in her hands, which is the grain offering of jealousy, and in the hand of the priest is to be the water of bitterness that brings a curse. 19 The priest shall have her take an oath and shall say to the woman, “If no man has lain with you and if you have not gone astray into uncleanness, being under the authority of your husband, be [l]immune to this water of bitterness that brings a curse; 20 if you, however, have gone astray, being under the authority of your husband, and if you have defiled yourself and a man other than your husband has had intercourse with you” 21 (then the priest shall have the woman swear with the oath of the curse, and the priest shall say to the woman), “the Lord make you a curse and an oath among your people by the Lord’s making your thigh [m]waste away and your abdomen swell; 22 and this water that brings a curse shall go into your [n]stomach, and make your abdomen swell and your thigh [o]waste away.” And the woman shall say, “Amen. Amen.” Numbers 5:11-22 NASB
God does not tell His people to do one thing and then He turn around and do something different. He is consistent.
HE DOES NOT CHANGE.....unlike Roman Catholicism which has, does, and will change.
For Roman Catholicism to argue otherwise displays an amazing lack of knowledge of the character of God.
And again, context is your key to understanding the Scriptures.
8It happened when Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his clothes, that he sent word to the king, saying, “Why have you torn your clothes? Now let him come to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel.” 9So Naaman came with his horses and his chariots and stood at the doorway of the house of Elisha. 10Elisha sent a messenger to him, saying, “Go and wash in the Jordan seven times, and your flesh will be restored to you and you will be clean.”
11But Naaman was furious and went away and said, “Behold, I thought, ‘He will surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the LORD his God, and wave his hand over the place and cure the leper.’ 12“Are not Abanah and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than all the waters of Israel? Could I not wash in them and be clean?” So he turned and went away in a rage.
13Then his servants came near and spoke to him and said, “My father, had the prophet told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more then, when he says to you, ‘Wash, and be clean’?” 14So he went down and dipped himself seven times in the Jordan, according to the word of the man of God; and his flesh was restored like the flesh of a little child and he was clean.
15When he returned to the man of God with all his company, and came and stood before him, he said, “Behold now, I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; so please take a present from your servant now.” 16But he said, “As the LORD lives, before whom I stand, I will take nothing.” And he urged him to take it, but he refused. 17Naaman said, “If not, please let your servant at least be given two mules’ load of earth; for your servant will no longer offer burnt offering nor will he sacrifice to other gods, but to the LORD. 18“In this matter may the LORD pardon your servant: when my master goes into the house of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand and I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, when I bow myself in the house of Rimmon, the LORD pardon your servant in this matter.” 19He said to him, “Go in peace.” So he departed from him some distance. 2 Kings 5:8-19 NASB
It is the belief of the man of God that is what healed Naaman....not the water.
He was obedient to Elisha...the man of God.
And what was the overall purpose of this encounter?
15When he returned to the man of God with all his company, and came and stood before him, he said,
“Behold now, I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel; so please take a present from your servant now.” 2 Kings 5:15 NASB
What we see in the NT with the Apostles are direct healings of people and the casting out of demons.....no "holy water" required....and why....because they are doing so through the name of Jesus Christ.
Again....if the Roman Catholic wants to live under the OT LAW they have to subject themselves to all of it.
Nobody's denying that this miracle of healing water helps attach Naaman to Israel and Israel's God, and that the healing is done by the power of God.
But you're not comprehending another point here: that God uses secondary causes. This is normal for God. This is the way He goes about working through His creatures: blessed bread, blessed wine, blessed oil, a blessed staff for Aaron, blessed cloths touched by Paul, blessed waters of Siloam, waters of the Jordan, the Pharaoh's-Army-destroying waters of the Red Sea, waters flowing from the right side of the Temple, the sin-destroying waters of the Great Flood, the breathed-upon waters throughout the Bible, the soul-cleansing blood and water from the pierced heart of the Crucified One.
Here are commentaries on God's blessing of the Waters, by eminent Protestant teachers (Ellicott's Commentary, Cambridge Commentary, the Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary; MacLaren's Expositions; Benson Commentary; Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary; Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible). These make reference to the healing miraculous waters in Ezekiel 47, and every one one of them comments on how God repeatedly and strikingly uses water to manifest His will and His healing and purifying power.
It is so plain I don't know how it could be plainer.
This is our prayer and faith seeing God's work in the use of His creature, water.
We use holy water through faith in God's (!) power. You could too, if you had this faith. GOD DOES NOT CHANGE.
1Then he brought me back to the door of the house; and behold, water was flowing from under the threshold of the house toward the east, for the house faced east. And the water was flowing down from under, from the right side of the house, from south of the altar. 2He brought me out by way of the north gate and led me around on the outside to the outer gate by way of the gate that faces east. And behold, water was trickling from the south side. 3When the man went out toward the east with a line in his hand, he measured a thousand cubits, and he led me through the water, water reaching the ankles. 4Again he measured a thousand and led me through the water, water reaching the knees. Again he measured a thousand and led me through the water, water reaching the loins. 5Again he measured a thousand; and it was a river that I could not ford, for the water had risen, enough water to swim in, a river that could not be forded. 6He said to me, “Son of man, have you seen this?” Then he brought me back to the bank of the river. 7Now when I had returned, behold, on the bank of the river there were very many trees on the one side and on the other. 8Then he said to me, “These waters go out toward the eastern region and go down into the Arabah; then they go toward the sea, being made to flow into the sea, and the waters of the sea become fresh. 9“It will come about that every living creature which swarms in every place where the river goes, will live. And there will be very many fish, for these waters go there and the others become fresh; so everything will live where the river goes. 10“And it will come about that fishermen will stand beside it; from Engedi to Eneglaim there will be a place for the spreading of nets. Their fish will be according to their kinds, like the fish of the Great Sea, very many. 11“But its swamps and marshes will not become fresh; they will be left for salt. 12“By the river on its bank, on one side and on the other, will grow all kinds of trees for food. Their leaves will not wither and their fruit will not fail. They will bear every month because their water flows from the sanctuary, and their fruit will be for food and their leaves for healing.” Ezekiel 47:1-12 NASB
You do understand this is a specific prophecy for Ezekiel for a specific time.....right??
Now, if you want to say this is applicable for today, then you will have to go back to Ezekiel 46:19-20 and reinstate the guilt offering and sin offering and grain offering.
Mrs D.....we're in the New Testament!
Christians, but I'm not sure about Roman Catholics, are NOT UNDER THE LAW.
God tells us to come to Him in faith.
You may want to read Romans 5 on this. It's good stuff.
Recall when Paul cast out the demon in the girl in Acts he didn't mix up a batch of "holy water".....he called the demon out in the name of Christ.
See, you've moved the argument again when the facts go against you.
Holy water has long been a powerful sacramental used by Christians. St. Teresa of Avila attested that “from long experience I have learned that there is nothing like holy water to put devils to flight.”
I showed you several examples in the NT where demons were cast out in the name of Christ.....not one used "holy water".
It is a later development of Roman Catholicism not attested to by Scripture.
I don't know if you've read her writings....she's has some very Gnostic tendencies....four degrees of prayer????
Very well said, Ma’am.
John 9:6-8
He [Jesus] spat on the ground, made some mud, and applied it to the man’s eyes. Then He told him, “Go, wash in the pool of Siloam” (which means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came back seeing. At this, his neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging began to ask, “Isn’t this the man who used to sit and beg?”
Well, what I see in Scripture is water, water everywhere. I love how God consistently uses water to manifest His will and His power to cleans, to heal, to purify from sin.
To summarize one of our themes, class:
There are none so blind, as those who will not see.
God doesn’t always use water. Sometimes He uses mud!
You have a gift for EISEGESIS. Seeing what you want to see in Scripture but what is not there in Scripture.
Lol. God’s use of water as sign, symbol and sacrament, from Genesis to Revelation. It’s what’s there.
LOL....let's see....the article mentions using "holy water" as a means of defeating demons....."St. Teresa of Avila attested that “from long experience I have learned that there is nothing like holy water to put devils to flight.”
Yet when we examine the NT.....not one instance of "holy water" being used to fight devils.
We do see several instances where it is the name of the Lord that is feared and which is used to drive out demons.
Then you attempt to cite the one passage in the OT that mentions holy water.....but is not used in the manner suggested by "St. Teresa".
I also showed you where St. Teresa had some rather Gnostic views on prayer....however, your denomination has made her a "doctor" of the RCC.
Mrs D.....you're all over the place in your EISEGESIS.
I offer this to you on sound biblical hermeneutics.
There is another article there on reading the Bible in context. I do recall one of your fellow RCs asking why context was so important. I encourage you to read that article as well.
In addition there is an article on eisegesis and exegesis. I recommend that one as well.
Question: "What is biblical hermeneutics?"
Answer: Biblical hermeneutics is the study of the principles and methods of interpreting the text of the Bible. Second Timothy 2:15 commands believers to be involved in hermeneutics: “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who . . . correctly handles the word of truth.” The purpose of biblical hermeneutics is to help us to know how to properly interpret, understand, and apply the Bible.
The most important law of biblical hermeneutics is that the Bible should be interpreted literally. We are to understand the Bible in its normal or plain meaning, unless the passage is obviously intended to be symbolic or if figures of speech are employed. The Bible says what it means and means what it says. For example, when Jesus speaks of having fed “the five thousand” in Mark 8:19, the law of hermeneutics says we should understand five thousand literally—there was a crowd of hungry people that numbered five thousand who were fed with real bread and fish by a miracle-working Savior. Any attempt to “spiritualize” the number or to deny a literal miracle is to do injustice to the text and ignore the purpose of language, which is to communicate. Some interpreters make the mistake of trying to read between the lines of Scripture to come up with esoteric meanings that are not truly in the text, as if every passage has a hidden spiritual truth that we should seek to decrypt. Biblical hermeneutics keeps us faithful to the intended meaning of Scripture and away from allegorizing Bible verses that should be understood literally.
A second crucial law of biblical hermeneutics is that passages must be interpreted historically, grammatically, and contextually. Interpreting a passage historically means we must seek to understand the culture, background, and situation that prompted the text. For example, in order to fully understand Jonah’s flight in Jonah 1:1–3, we should research the history of the Assyrians as related to Israel. Interpreting a passage grammatically requires one to follow the rules of grammar and recognize the nuances of Hebrew and Greek. For example, when Paul writes of “our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” in Titus 2:13, the rules of grammar state that God and Savior are parallel terms and they are both in apposition to Jesus Christ—in other words, Paul clearly calls Jesus “our great God.” Interpreting a passage contextually involves considering the context of a verse or passage when trying to determine the meaning. The context includes the verses immediately preceding and following, the chapter, the book, and, most broadly, the entire Bible. For example, many puzzling statements in Ecclesiastes become clearer when kept in context—the book of Ecclesiastes is written from the earthly perspective “under the sun” (Ecclesiastes 1:3). In fact, the phrase under the sun is repeated about thirty times in the book, establishing the context for all that is “vanity” in this world.
A third law of biblical hermeneutics is that Scripture is always the best interpreter of Scripture. For this reason, we always compare Scripture with Scripture when trying to determine the meaning of a passage. For example, Isaiah’s condemnation of Judah’s desire to seek Egypt’s help and their reliance on a strong cavalry (Isaiah 31:1) was motivated, in part, by God’s explicit command that His people not go to Egypt to seek horses (Deuteronomy 17:16).
Some people avoid studying biblical hermeneutics because they mistakenly believe it will limit their ability to learn new truths from God’s Word or stifle the Holy Spirit’s illumination of Scripture. But their fears are unfounded. Biblical hermeneutics is all about finding the correct interpretation of the inspired text. The purpose of biblical hermeneutics is to protect us from misapplying Scripture or allowing bias to color our understanding of truth. God’s Word is truth (John 17:17). We want to see the truth, know the truth, and live the truth as best we can, and that’s why biblical hermeneutics is vital.
https://www.gotquestions.org/Biblical-hermeneutics.html
I already regret typing this post, because I know it’s a waste of time but guess what: I have a few minutes to kill where I have absolutely nothing better to do so here we go (besides I’m sure your guaranteed, must-get-the-last-word-in-instead-of-actually-thinking reply will be worth at least a chuckle):
First, let’s say for a moment that what you’re clearly implying is true, that the practice of using the sacramental known as “holy water” suddenly, with perhaps even a *poof* of Holy smoke to accompany its entry into the realm of time, appeared for no reason at all in the 9th century. Let’s do some quick math, (carry the ten, count both hands blah blah) that’s about 1,200 years by my abacus. Tell me, even given the caveats above, doesn’t that surpise you in the slightest? That Christians born over a thousand years before you were born were doing something you personally regard as “unbiblical”? Where were the egleone’s of the 9th century decrying such heresy? Burned at some lonely stake perhaps? If so, got any evidence of such cruel persecution (over a matter of Holy water mind you). Cuz if not seems to me that the simplest explaination is probably the truth: that yeah, real Christians have indeed been using holy water for ages, at least 1,200 years, and saw nothing wrong with it. Kinda makes the truly humble wonder “hmm, maybe they knew something about Christian faith I didn’t”.
Another thing, you apparently didn’t read both what you quoted and the entire article very well. First what you quoted puts a particular practice using holy water (its use during the Mass) as starting at the 9th century. But in case you aren’t aware or unable to understand, that statement doesn’t necessarily mean holy water wasn’t used for some other purpose before the 9th century. Indeed another part of what you quoted stated “...is quite possible that, according to canon 65 of the Council of Constantinople held in 691, this rite was established for the purpose of definitively supplanting the pagan feast of the new moon and causing it to pass into oblivion...”
So now we have evidence that holy water was used (granted for some other purpose than as part of a Mass but still) used almost 200 years before the 9th century! So now I guess you’ll suggest there were even more proto-egleone’s burned at the stake for decrying such heresy (again without any proof). For 1400 years instead of 1200. See, I knew this would be worth at least a chuckle for the both of us.
Then also, you conveniently omittted the portion of the encyclopedia article that clearly demonstrates it (the use of holy water) can be traced all the way back to the 5th century and maybe even before! But at least the 5th century. So let’s break out the abacus again, that’s now sixteen hundred years! That can be definitively known. Gee, getting pretty close to the time of Christ and His Apostles. Sure, 400 years to go, a long time to be sure, but a lot *less* time than you falsely implied and really, how many proto-egleones do we need to imagine before we simply give up to Occam and say, “hmm seems like pretty much the entire history of Christianity has this holy water stuff. Maybe there’s something to it more than my small imagination has informed me”.
Nah, it’s more comfortable to just believe what you want; also more fun to believe there were a ton of proto-egleones burned at the stake (for which again no historical evidence exists) all because they dared decry the use of holy water for 1600 years straight! Who knew holy water was so controversial? Not the Church fathers to be sure never see them battling it’s use anywhere in any writing ever. But let’s not let that fact get in our way; after all, egleone is here *now* to tell us what Christianity is all about, and what the Bible really says and doesn’t say.
We should all be thankful. And not burn him at the stake *this* time.
You might want to note exactly what the article said...brackets mine....In the West [Rome in other words] Dom Martène declares that nothing was found prior to the ninth century concerning the blessing and aspersion of water that takes place every Sunday at Mass.
You may also notice I posted this as well.....
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It is quite possible that, according to canon 65 of the Council of Constantinople held in 691, this rite was established for the purpose of definitively supplanting the pagan feast of the new moon and causing it to pass into oblivion....that was the Greek church....not Roman Catholicism.
Yes...the article also says this:
The use of holy water in the earliest days of the Christian Era is attested by documents of only comparatively late date.
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I did see the part about the "Apostolic Constitutions" dating back to around 400 AD. But the article goes on to say:
The letter written under the name of Pope Alexander I, who lived in the second century, is apocryphal and of more recent times; hence the first historical testimony does not go back beyond the fifth century. However, it is permissible to suppose for the sake of argument that, [We can permit a lot of things for the "sake of argument"] in the earliest Christian times, water was used for expiatory and purificatory purposes,....
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I did also find this now that you've prompted me to do additional research.
The same tradition declares him [Pope Alexander I] to have been a Roman by birth and to have ruled the Church in the reign of Trajan (98-117). It likewise attributes to him, but scarcely with accuracy, the insertion in the canon of the Qui Pridie, or words commemorative of the institution of the Eucharist, such being certainly primitive and original in the Mass.
He is also said to have introduced [if it's being introduced....it wasn't used previously]
the use of blessing water mixed with salt for the purification of Christian homes from evil influences (constituit aquam sparsionis cum sale benedici in habitaculis hominum).
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We can permit a lot of things for the "sake of argument".
However....what is not attested is the use of "holy water" for the purpose noted in the original article [put devils to flight] in the New Testament.
Demons were cast out using the name of the Lord.
If the name of the Lord is insufficient to cause a demon to fear and leave....no amount of water is gong to do the job.
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We do see the use of oil however in the New Testament for various reason...none of which are used for casting out demons.
We also have Paul giving advice on not drinking only water, but to use a little wine [though some have taken great liberties with the use of a little wine] as an aid to help with stomach issues and frequent illnesses.
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A lot of false practices have made their way into the church. For example....the belief that wearing a scapular can keep you out of the hell-fire and get you out of "purgatory" early.
We're currently seeing some serious false issues in the Roman Catholic church right now for that matter!
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