Posted on 11/05/2018 1:55:29 PM PST by boatbums
I gave you a two word reply. I do. Is that too simple, am I not verbose enough for that to register for you? I know you’re accustomed to lengthy pontification and flapdoodle raining down by the sheaf but really, those two words suffice. Brevity. You should try it.
Limbo? You seem confused. You reference Abraham’s Bosom or Paradise in one instance, the place of the righteous dead prior to Jesus Christ freeing them from captivity to go into the presence of God just as all who die in Christ have done ever since. Then you turn around and reference the depths of Hell.
In 2 Timothy 1:18, St. Paul prays for Onesiphorus, who has died.
In 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, Judas Maccabee orders that sacrifices be offered in the Temple in Jerusalem for slain Jewish soldiers who had worn pagan amulets.
Why pray for the dead you ask?
All sin, unfortunately, has a life of its own and may have bad effects even after the sinner repents. Sincere repentance includes a desire to repair the damage done by one’s sins. That may or may not be complete before the person dies.
The Bible says pray for the dead.
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Where?
In books that the Vatican only finally decided should go into the canon AFTER Trent?
In 2 Timothy 1:18, St. Paul prays for Onesiphorus, who has died.
In 2 Maccabees 12:38-46, Judas Maccabee orders that sacrifices be offered in the Temple in Jerusalem for slain Jewish soldiers who had worn pagan amulets.
Why pray for the dead you ask?
All sin, unfortunately, has a life of its own and may have bad effects even after the sinner repents. Sincere repentance includes a desire to repair the damage done by one’s sins. That may or may not be complete before the person dies.
You gonna apply that same logic to Roman Catholicism?
Yes, we all know that Martin Luther invented anti-Semitism all by his lonesome and Roman Catholicism was absolutely pure as the driven snow regarding Jewish people, always has been.
Do I really need a sarc tag for that, lol?
bump
2 Maccabees had always been disputed as canonical until the Vatican made it canon at Trent and so even if you are to accept it, anything that we take away from it must be seen in the light of what we know is canon.
And I just read 2 Timothy, and it doesn’t say what you just said that it says. In the original Greek it says the ‘house of Onesiphorus’ both at the beginning and end of the epistle, not the man himself.
Do I really need a sarc tag for that, lol?
***
On the FR religion forum?
Yep.
Paul does NOT pray for Onesiphorus. It is not a prayer.
Maccabees, if someone accepts it, is not a NT book (Christ did not, nor did the Jewish leaders, nor did Catholics accept it until 1,500 years after Christ).
More importantly, Maccabees is not written to believers in Christ.
Both books predate Christ’s sacrifice Joe.
“may have bad effects even after the sinner repents.”
Sin may have consequences in time.
For those who put their trust for salvation in Christ alone, apart from their works, every sin has already been paid for by His sacrifice.
The Purgatory in Colorado, is the only one I knew about. Great skiing too😁⛷
I had not seen your latest reply by the time of my post.
I understand now that you believe in Hell, but not Purgatory. Am I correct?
There’s one in Colorado, too!
***
Don’t ask me why, but this reminds me so much of Sinterklaas, where the Dutch believe that naughty children get stuffed into a sack and taken away to Spain.
So apparently naughty Catholics have to go to... Maine and Colorado.
...sounds legit.
Accusing someone else of lying on the RF is against the rules.
My take (a Protestant, overall Bible nerd, who’s read the “apocrypha” books in the Catholic OT once and studied a lot of church history).
It’s probably best not to quote everything by Luther as though it’s his official doctrinal belief. He had a habit of going off the cuff to make a point to win a debate (think Trump). So it’s not like a dual personality when he says that purgatory is “an appropriation of the devil”, then later says purgatory “…we have received neither command nor instruction. For these reasons, it may be best to abandon it [derhalben man es mocht wohl lassen], even if it were neither error nor idolatry”. It’s a logical argument to abandon purgatory if the Bible doesn’t address the dead, and especially if the devil has tempted church leaders to abuse it.
I think many people who know about the purgatory debate know about an incident of praying for the dead being mentioned in 2nd Maccabees, and that that’s one of the books in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant Bible because St. Jerome couldn’t find a copy written in Hebrew or Aramaic when he translated the books in what we now call the “Old Testament” into the Latin Vulgate (the old Latin word “vulgar” at the time meaning having to do with the common man – like everybody in St. Jerome’s day knowing Latin more than the Greek language in the Septuagint). So Protestants tell Catholics to not read much into the apocrypha books (“apocrypha” meaning unknown), including 2nd Maccabees and the incidence of praying for the dead.
I ask to Catholics who I believe to be fellow Christians, even if you believe 2nd Maccabees is part of the Bible canon, why stop there? There are many other, much more detailed, descriptions in the Old Testament about the place of the dead. What the Hebrew people called “Sheol”. For example, Genesis 37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44:31; Job 14:31 describe Sheol as a place that the righteous dead go to, while Numbers 16:30 & 33; 1 Kings 2:9; Psalm 9:17, 31:17, 49:14 describe people who reject the Lord going to Sheol. There are many other examples of both. And should the church teach it’s possible to communicate with the dead because of the story in 1st Samuel 28? There’s so much more detail in the OT to have those beliefs about the dead than the few lines in 2nd Maccabees about praying for the dead.
If you don’t want to adopt the other, much more detailed descriptions about the place of the dead in the Old Testament, then it’s hard to justify going off on a tangent from the minimal purgatory teaching in one otherwise obscure Old Testament book that nobody believes we have the original writings of, just a copy of what Jason of Cyrene says was in 2nd Maccabees. When I say “original writings” I’m not expecting us to be able to lay our hands on the original writing of Judah Maccabee any more than we can lay our hands on the original copy of Genesis. I’m saying we don’t even have a good copy of 2nd Maccabees, just a conglomeration of various writings that Jason of Cyrene said was in it. So surely a couple of lines supporting a belief in purgatory from a book we don’t even know is accurate to the original shouldn’t take precedence over all the other Old Testament descriptions of the place of the dead (Sheol) from copies of books written by people who were known to be prophets of God (not just a good military leader like Judah Maccabee), but also that we know line-by-line what we have in today’s copies of their books is exactly what was originally written.
I saw the Colorado one when I looked it up but I figured I could only run with one in the post :)
I KNEW there was a Purgatory but I always thought it was out west.
Sounds like the name of an 1800s gold mining town :)
In this particular instance, you are correct regarding my beliefs. However, please cite only undisputed scripture acknowledged as canonical by all of Christianity, when attempting to persuade me otherwise regarding Purgatory.
A: You didn’t say verse 19.
B: That’s still not a prayer.
C: Has nothing to do with Purgatory anyways because he’s talking about the Day of the Lord.
D: Getting angry and accusations of lying will get you removed from the thread very quickly.
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