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Pulling Back the Veil - An Overview of the Book of Revelation
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 11-18-18 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 11/19/2018 7:43:58 AM PST by Salvation

Pulling Back the Veil - An Overview of the Book of Revelation

November 18, 2018

In daily Mass we are currently reading selections from the Book of Revelation—not a bad choice as the end of the liturgical year swiftly approaches.

While many suppose that the Book of Revelation is merely about the end of the world, it is about far more; it is also about what is happening right now. It was not written only for the end of the ages but for all ages. It is a book of glory that discloses the victory Jesus has already won. Don’t get lost in lots of exotic theories; Revelation is a prophetic book of glory.

Its title in Greek is ποκάλυψις ησο Χριστο (Apokalupsis Jesou Christou), which literally means “The Unveiling of Jesus Christ.” It is as if Jesus is pulling back the veil to show us what is really going on. He shows us the great drama of history and tells us that He has already won the victory. He declares that we should not to lose heart while the dust settles, while the wheat is separated from the chaff and the harvest is brought in.

We are too easily mesmerized or terrified by our limited view of history. We think that life depends on which political party wins, or whether a cure is found for some disease, or whether nations of the world can reach rapprochement—but the battle is far higher and deeper than our tiny slice of time. It is far deadlier and concerns more dramatic issues than what will happen to the GNP of the U.S. or which of the latest political theories will prevail.

This is a great drama between good and evil. It concerns the fundamental issue of where you will spend eternity. Yes, there is a great and cosmic battle in which we are all caught up; it is happening all around us. St. Paul says,

For we do not contend against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the high places. Therefore, take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm (Eph 6:11-13).

The Book of Revelation is speaking to the same reality. It unveils the true and cosmic battle. In so doing, it declares without ambiguity who the victor is: Jesus Christ our King, who has already won. There are only two kingdoms, two armies, two sides. You must decide whom you will serve: the prince of this world or the King and Lord of all creation.

Revelation opens with a vision of the glory of Jesus the Great Lord and Son of Man:

I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet saying, “Write what you see in a book and send it to the seven churches, to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to Thyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea.” Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength. When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead (Rev 1:10-17).

Yes, this is our Lord Jesus in His resurrected and conquering glory! At the name of Jesus every knee shall bend in the heavens, on the earth, and under the earth, and every tongue proclaim to the glory of God the Father that Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil 2:10-11).

Yes, Jesus Christ is the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. Behold, he is coming amid the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen (Rev 1:5-7).

The second part of the Book of Revelation calls the Church and us as individuals to repentance and perseverance. The cosmic battle reaches the Church and individual disciples. The battle is in the Church and in the heart of every person. Thus, the letters to the seven churches referred to in Revelations 1. We are not to lose the love we had at first. We must be willing to endure hardship and persecution. We are to reject the fornicators and all those who propose any sort of sexual immorality. We are to resist syncretism and every form of false religion. We must resist Satan’s deep secrets; we must not be in any agreement with his ways. We must resist sloth and not fall back. We must resist lukewarmness as well as every sort of pride and self-satisfaction. The Church, clergy and laity, must fight the good fight, must persevere. We must endure hardship, keeping in mind the reward that awaits the courageous and the eternal disgrace that is coming to cowards and to all those who embrace the world, the flesh, and the devil.

John is then caught up into Heaven to see the glory of God and the heavenly liturgy. He has revealed to him what must take place soon. Historically, the Book of Revelation pointed to the destruction of Jerusalem and to the end of an era. Down through the ages, empires and nations have crumbled; eras and epochs have come and gone. Only God’s Kingdom, as proclaimed and made sacramentally present by the Church, has survived or will survive.

Today we are arguably at the end of another era and epoch. The West is crumbling, and decadence abounds. Confusion about basic reality is so widespread that our current world can credibly be compared to a lunatic asylum. Even within the Church, voices that should speak out prophetically remain silenced by fear. There is among Church leaders, clergy, and laity a widespread softness and a feeling that the risk of speaking out is too great.

The message of the Book of Revelation is a strong antidote to times like these—to all times past, present, and future: be strong, be prepared, and be willing to suffer, realizing that no matter how powerful evil may seem, Jesus is the victor. We are swept up into a cosmic battle that is much larger than our current situation but that reaches us nonetheless. Don’t think that you can sit on the fence; you must choose a side. Satan owns the fence and he is coming for you; he will say, “You belong to me.”

The seals, the bowls, and the trumpets of Revelation are but a further description of the cosmic battle and the wretched defeats that ultimately come to the defiant and disobedient. God will not leave unpunished those who despise His Kingdom and His holy ones. These seven ordeals times three are a call to repentance to those who survive. They are also a manifestation of God’s justice and ultimate authority over history.

A crucial battle comes in Revelation 12, when the red dragon with seven heads and ten horns besets Mother Mary, who is also an image of the Church. But the devil cannot prevail in the war that breaks out in Heaven. He is hurled to the earth, where he unsuccessfully pursues the woman (who is Mary and the Church). In a rage, he continues to pursue us. For the time being, the cosmic battle continues; Satan rages because he knows his time his short.

Satan is a big loser, but even losers have an uncanny ability to impress and dupe foolish, gullible people. Satan still makes empty promises and dangles passing pleasures before us. Sadly, many of the worldly and unspiritual fall prey to his lies. Mysteriously, God permits this until the full number of the elect is gathered in.

Then comes the end:

And fire came down from heaven and devoured Satan and his armies and followers. And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new.” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true” (Rev 20:9-21:5).

Yes, it is good that we read the Book of Revelation. In it, the Lord is telling us what is really going on and what the outcome will be. He is telling us not to lose heart. “In this world you shall have tribulation, but have courage, I have overcome the world” (John 16:33).

Be not dismayed, fellow Christians. Do not be fearful of what is coming upon this world. Even if it is the end of the era or epoch, the Church has endured such sea changes before. Christ has already won the victory and has promised that the Church will remain indefectible. When the current foolishness has run its course, we will still be here preaching the Gospel, even if we have become a small remnant and are preaching from our prison cells!

Do not be fearful. Do not be a coward. Preach boldly and with love. Continue to shine the light of the gospel in the darkness. The gospel will win; it always wins.

Don’t get lost in the details of the Book of Revelation and miss its message: victory in the midst of persecution and trial. It is a call to persevere. It is a pulling back of the veil to show us what the end shall be! Be strong, courageous, and certain. Jesus has already won the great victory in the cosmic battle. The dust is still settling, but know for certain that Jesus has won, and if you choose Him, so will you!

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son. But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death (Rev 21:7-8).

Regardless of what you think is going on, this is what is really going on. Choose sides. I urge you to choose Christ with courage. Don’t look back. Come what may, Viva Christo Rey!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; catholic
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To: af_vet_1981

No one is questioning it is Mary in the passage in Luke 1. What is in question is the subsequent Roman Catholic interpretation of the passages in question.


21 posted on 11/20/2018 3:43:50 AM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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To: ealgeone
No one is questioning it is Mary in the passage in Luke 1. What is in question is the subsequent Roman Catholic interpretation of the passages in question.

I submit if one tries to remove Mary from the Revelation passage, one rejects her as the Virgin of Israel who gave birth to Jesus the Messiah.

Msgr. Charles Pope wrote:

A crucial battle comes in Revelation 12, when the red dragon with seven heads and ten horns besets Mother Mary, who is also an image of the Church. But the devil cannot prevail in the war that breaks out in Heaven. He is hurled to the earth, where he unsuccessfully pursues the woman (who is Mary and the Church). In a rage, he continues to pursue us. For the time being, the cosmic battle continues; Satan rages because he knows his time his short.

The Authorized Protestant KJV reads:

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation, Catholic chapter twelve, Protestant verses one to five,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

There is no other man who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron than the Messiah. There is no other name given for He Who Ascended than Jesus. There is no other name give for His mother than Miriam/Mary.

This woman, forever blessed, is pictured in the same imagery as the Patriarch Joseph. The scripture interprets his dream. The sun is Jacob/Israel, the mother Rivka/Rebecca, the stars are his brethren the sons of Jacob/Israel. Similarly, one can apply this symmetry to the woman, although it is not explicitly done in the scripture.

Because the woman in the chapter is persecuted, flees, her seed keeps the commandments of God, and has the testimony of Jesus Christ, the woman is thought to also be the Church that the Messiah founded on the Apostle Peter, the other Jewish apostles and prophets, with Himself, the Messiah, as the chief cornerstone.


22 posted on 11/20/2018 5:40:07 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: sasportas
SAs -- I'd suggest you read before commenting. The article says "While many suppose that the Book of Revelation is merely about the end of the world, it is about far more; it is also about what is happening right now. It was not written only for the end of the ages but for all ages." and you say ""So, of course he’s going to say Revelation is not about the end of the world..."

You are projecting -- He very clearly said it is ALSO

orthodoxy doesn't hold to a-milly whatever, nor to pre-milly or whatever milly. That yon's a non-Catholic la-di-dah.

Catholics never boarded the "End Time Prediction" train.

read The meaning of the Millenium; Four views - what you are holding to is normally called the "Dispensational view", while the early Millenial view is normally called the "historic millenial view". These are not the same

The Church on the other hand rejected both of these as excesses - Origen speaks against the literal interpretation of Revelation and promotes the allegorical interpretation. Eusebius and Christians of his time attribute literal reign of Christ to a heretic. And finally it is Augustin who settles the issue and argues that the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth with the saints is allegorical not literal.

And it's not only Catholics but EVERY Church before 1500 -- the Assyrian Church of the East which split with the catholic-orthodox-orientals well before Constantine holds to it as do the Orientals (Copts, Armenians, ) and the Eastern Orthodox.

Lately it's mostly the wack-a-doodle protestant or post-protestant sects of Irvingites, Mormons and Adventists who have adopted the millenerian views.

23 posted on 11/20/2018 6:23:57 AM PST by Cronos (Obama's dislike of Assad is not based on his brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: ealgeone
The archangel Gabriel addresses Mary as “full of grace.” Luke 1:27. the Greek word here, “kecharitomene” is in the perfect past participle tense, hence it might more precisely be translated “having already been completely graced/favored.” Thus the favor Gabriel refers to cannot be the future favor of Mary becoming the Mother of God.

So what is this grace/favor that is so unique that it even takes the place of Mary’s name in the archangel’s greeting, becoming Mary’s identity as it were?

When Mary asks how she will become the mother of the divine Messiah, since she is a virgin, Gabriel answers her: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God.” Luke 1:35

The Greek word for overshadowed, “episkiasei” reminds us of the word used in the Greek Septuagint Old Testament referring to how God dwelled in the inner part of the Jewish Temple. (The root Greek word “skeinei,” which is similar in sound to the Hebrew word “shechinah” (Greek has no ‘sh’ sound), means “to tabernacle.” Thus Gabriel refers to how God dwelled in the Holy of Holies at the center of the Temple where the Ark of the Covenant was kept. Read in the context of the Old Testament theology of the Ark and the Temple, it is clear that Gabriel is explaining to Mary (a devout Jew who hoped like any devout Jewish woman born of the line of David to become the mother of the Messiah) that her unique grace/favor was already to have been prepared to become the real Holy of Holies, a fit place for God to come and tabernacle with human beings.

Since Sin means alienation from God (Isaiah 59:2, Galatians 5:4), Mary could not be “overshadowed” by the Most High God as Gabriel promises unless, like the center of the Temple, she had already been suitably prepared to be the Holy of Holies—in other words, that she had been created and kept completely holy, completely free from all stain of Sin. For how can God rest/dwell in what is alienated from God?

Connecting the dots, the Catholic Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26) came to believe that Mary was immaculately conceived (that is, kept free from all stain of sin) NOT because of any merit on her own, but to help accomplish what God had promised in his covenant through the Jewish people with the human race—to pitch God’s tent/to tabernacle/to take on the “tent” of human flesh/to dwell among us as our Savior. Thus the Jewish Temple is a prefiguration of Mary, and Mary in turn is a prefiguration of all of us as the Church, the body of Christ, who continue to give birth to/perpetuate the indwelling of Christ in the world. Luke 1:34

24 posted on 11/20/2018 6:29:56 AM PST by Cronos (Obama's dislike of Assad is not based on his brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: ealgeone; Campion
eagloene: The Lord God said to Eve, “I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children” (Genesis 3:16). Since Mary was free of original sin by her immaculate conception, she would consequently be free of “child bearing pain.”

The second does not logically follow from the first.

25 posted on 11/20/2018 6:51:57 AM PST by Cronos (Obama's dislike of Assad is not based on his brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Cronos
Your premise is based on an incorrect rendering of the Greek on two accounts. One the translation of the word you posted which is more correctly rendered favored and not full. The Catholic Encyclopedia notes the version Rome uses cannot be defended critically and only arose after the 4th century.

In addition you’re ignoring the passages in Rev 12 and Romans 3; Gen 3.

26 posted on 11/20/2018 6:52:49 AM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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To: ealgeone

The Church hasn’t defined a dogma about the book of the Apocalypse because it didn’t need to. A dogma arises when there are multiple points of view which can lead to error as in the numerous pre-milly groups like the Adventists


27 posted on 11/20/2018 6:53:31 AM PST by Cronos (Obama's dislike of Assad is not based on his brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: ealgeone
Thank you for your response, however the "more correctly rendered favored and not full" is exactly in line with the opening paragraph of my post The archangel Gabriel addresses Mary as “full of grace.” Luke 1:27. the Greek word here, “kecharitomene” is in the perfect past participle tense, hence it might more precisely be translated “having already been completely graced/favored.” Thus the favor Gabriel refers to cannot be the future favor of Mary becoming the Mother of God

Secondly the Catholic encyclopedia says nothing of the sort you say -- it says the the Vulgate rendering Ave gratia plena, "Hail full of grace", has often been criticized as too explicit a translation of the Greek chaire kecharitomene, it says nothing that it cannot be defended critically

Next, the catholic encyclopedia also talks about the use of the term in the "Hail Mary" prayer and about its usage in time.

If this is how you critically read a web-page I would suggest really reading the Biblical books more carefully

28 posted on 11/20/2018 7:07:09 AM PST by Cronos (Obama's dislike of Assad is not based on his brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
I'll give you an Amen and I'll raise you...

The One True Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ Jesus
                                                                                                                            , that built western civilization.
          The Nicene Creed
          I believe in one God,
          the Father almighty,
          maker of heaven and earth,
          of all things visible and invisible.
+10 One God
          I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
          the Only Begotten Son of God,
          born of the Father before all ages.
+10 Christ Jesus
          God from God, Light from Light,
          true God from true God,
          begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
          through him all things were made.
+ 1 Consubstantial with the Father
          For us men and for our salvation
          he came down from heaven,
+ 1 For our salvation
           and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary,
          and became man.
+ 1 Virgin Birth
          For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
          he suffered death and was buried,
          and rose again on the third day
          in accordance with the Scriptures.
+10 Suffered, Died and Rose
          He ascended into heaven
          and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
+ 1 Ascended, Seated
          He will come again in glory
          to judge the living and the dead
          and his kingdom will have no end.
+10 Come Again in Glory to Judge
          I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
          who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
          who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
          who has spoken through the prophets.
+10 Holy Trinity
          I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
+10 One Visible Church
          I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
+ 1 One Baptism
          and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
          and the life of the world to come.
+10 Resurrection of the Dead
          The Ten Commandments:
          1. I am the LORD your God. You shall worship the Lord your God
              and Him only shall you serve.
          2. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain.
          3. Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.
          4. Honor your father and your mother.
          5. You shall not murder.
          6. You shall not commit adultery.
          7. You shall not steal.
          8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
          9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
          10.You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.
+10 The Ten Commandments
          The Greatest Commandment
          1. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy
               whole soul, and with thy whole mind, and with thy whole strength
          2. Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
+ 2 The Greatest Commnadments
          The Seven Sacraments Catholic Church:
          1. Baptism.
          2. Eucharist.
          3. Confirmation.
          4. Reconciliation.
          5. Anointing of the sick.
          6. Marriage.(XY+XX)
          7. Holy orders.
+ 7 The Seven Sacraments
          The Precepts of the Catholic Church:
          1. You shall attend Mass on Sundays and on holy days of obligation
               and rest from servile labor.
          2. You shall confess your sins at least once a year.
          3. You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the
              Easter season.
          4. You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by
               the Church.
          5. You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church.
+ 5 The Precepts
          The seven chief corporal works of mercy:
          1. To feed the hungry.
          2. To give drink to the thirsty.
          3. To clothe the naked.
          4. To visit the imprisoned.
          5. To shelter the homeless.
          6. To visit the sick.
          7. To bury the dead.
+ 7 Corporal Works
          The seven chief spiritual works of mercy:
          1. To admonish the sinner.
          2. To instruct the ignorant.
          3. To counsel the doubtful.
          4. To comfort the sorrowful.
          5. To bear wrongs patiently.
          6. To forgive all injuries.
          7. To pray for the living and the dead.
+ 7 Spiritual Works
          Pro-Life - From Conception Until Natural Death
+15 Pro-Life

          _____ How Catholic am I?
                                   < 40 Stil searching?
                                   40-87 Good Candidate for RCIA
                                   88-100 Impressive
                                   > 100 You are on the Way to the Holy City, the new Jerusalem.

7

29 posted on 11/20/2018 7:11:05 AM PST by infool7 (Observe, Orient, Pray, Decide, Act!(it's an OOPDA loop))
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To: ealgeone

As I said “If this is how you critically read a web-page I would suggest really reading the Biblical books more carefully” — Romans 3 talks about people righteous and without sin through their own actions which is not possible as per Romans. It says nothing about the nature of sin of Mary. Ditto for your rendering of Genesis 3.


30 posted on 11/20/2018 7:12:31 AM PST by Cronos (Obama's dislike of Assad is not based on his brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: elcid1970
Because it is not important to his central message.

Maintain Faith and endure persecution.

31 posted on 11/20/2018 7:29:53 AM PST by G Larry (There is no great virtue in bargaining with the Devil)
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To: Cronos

Correction on my part. The CE references Gen 3 as being incorrectly translated by the vulgate.


32 posted on 11/20/2018 7:38:02 AM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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To: ealgeone

Thank you, however still note that this is the translation from Koine Greek (of Gen 3) into Vulgate Latin. It has no bearing on the full meaning of the words.


33 posted on 11/20/2018 7:56:38 AM PST by Cronos (Obama's dislike of Assad is not based on his brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Salvation

Look around you at the people who are leaving all churches and saying they don’t believe in God.


Many are leavng the visible church because the DO believe God.


34 posted on 11/20/2018 9:31:02 AM PST by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: ealgeone

And not to rub it in, but as an individual you can make mistakes - like your assertion about the kecharitomene. As a community, thanks to the Holy Spirit, the Church is protected from the slips of an individual.


35 posted on 11/20/2018 10:09:20 AM PST by Cronos (Obama's dislike of Assad is not based on his brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
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To: Cronos

Your last comment is interesting in light of your current pope.


36 posted on 11/20/2018 1:59:12 PM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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To: Cronos

Well, it does as Rome’s rendering of the passage changes the meaning of the passage and subsequent understanding of the New Testament. A bad translation leading to bad and incorrect theology.


37 posted on 11/20/2018 2:32:39 PM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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To: infool7

Oh yes. The Roman Catholic scorecard returns in time for thanksgiving!


38 posted on 11/20/2018 2:33:37 PM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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To: af_vet_1981
If you’re going to insist on the passage being about Mary then you have to accept Mary was a sinner as she cried out in pain while giving birth.

I’ve already posted from Roman Catholic sources Rome’s understanding of how Mary gave birth.

You can’t have it both ways with this passsge.

39 posted on 11/20/2018 2:37:21 PM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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To: Cronos

Well, it does if you read the texts without Rome’s rose colored glasses. Jehovah Witnesses make similar errors in biblical interpretation.


40 posted on 11/20/2018 2:39:12 PM PST by ealgeone (SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CHANGE!)
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