Replies

I wasn't there and can only guess, as could you.

No we can't only guess, we have plenty of writings from this period from people who lived through it, and we can read what they had to say about the time.

Unless, of course, if we have such a bee in our bonnet about "tradition" that we just ignore all that priceless information.

Historically, anyone opposing the established Pagan/Christian church was tortured and or executed. Everyone supporting this church was OK with them.

Um...what? This was in the 300s. There were orthodox Christians, Arians, Manichaeans, Docetists all kinds of people floating around, and there was certainly no Inquisition to stop them. People had every opportunity to make the case...if they thought it was a case worth making.

You might as well ask, when Rome added a class of demigods, mirroring the paganism from Greece, why didn't anyone correct them? When they made dear Mary into a demigoddess and gave her false titles, why didn't anyone correct them?

Easy. BECAUSE THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. Mary was never elevated to any sort of divine anything, and in fact when one sect DID do something like that (the Collyridians) Epiphanius called it a heresy.

Simply show that the early church did believe this from the time of the Apostles on. Show an Apostle teaching this. Show it happened before 100ad, during their lives.

Read down thread. I posted the Scriptural support from St. Paul and implied from Christ Himself. Antoninus posted evidence from the Passion of Perpetua and Felicity around 200, and I posted evidence from an inscription of 167.

Of course, you are going to say my interpretation is wrong and that every bit of evidence I cite is evidence of the paganizing corruption of the true Christian Church.

Yeah sure. Every instance of prayers for the dead are wrong. It's all some great big Catholic, Orthodox, and Oriental conspiracy against the First Baptist Church of Phrygia or some other imaginary ecclesial body that kept the "pure doctrines" of the Scripture intact.

Long story short...I can show you tons of evidence the doctrine was upheld. Can you show me any that it was rejected?

Claud,

“Mary was never elevated to any sort of divine anything, and in fact when one sect DID do something like that (the Collyridians) Epiphanius called it a heresy.”

Mary was and is called all sorts of heretical divine titles.

Ping to Elsie, keeper of the false-titles-of-mary-list.

“I posted the Scriptural support from St. Paul and implied from Christ Himself. “

Clearly speaking about works being judged and not people. Works being tested and either coming forth as “gold and precious gems”, or “wood hay and stubble” being burned. People were not being tested, nor burned. In fact, Paul says the person who has all his wasted works burned up is saved. This happens at the Bema seat and is for the saved. It only determines rewards in heaven.

“Every instance of prayers for the dead are wrong. “

We agree on this statement.

“I can show you tons of evidence the doctrine was upheld.”

Great! That is what I asked for. Please go ahead now and post tons of evidence from before 100ad that demonstrates anyone believing or teaching this doctrine Claud.

Thank you.

Best.

Unless, of course, if we have such a bee in our bonnet about "tradition" that we just ignore all that priceless information.

Matthew 15:1-9

1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, 2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.

3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.

5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; 6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, 8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.