Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

To: Cronos
But there are a few problems with your assumptions

You are putting your words in my text.

1. Europe (Christendom) vs Islam and Chinese --> this one is the most egregious. We in the west (and me at one point as well) do this most often that we completely forget about the ancient Church of the East - the Church in Ctesiphon-Seleucia. This, the Assyrian Church, had adherents as far away as Mongolia. The Uyghurs were Christians first, as was the wife of Genghis Khan and the wife of Hulagu Khan

So? Nothing I wrote is contradicted by what you wrote. The Khans became Islamic after Hulagu Khan. (not sure how soon, exactly, but it was clearly Islamic long before 1380. All part of the vast destruction caused by Islam.

2. tech passed through the Umma -- this is the story that many non-historians use to portray a "golden age of Islam" when Islam supposedly preserved the ancient works while Europe was barbaric. This is false:

a. the ones who copied the ancient texts in the Islamic world were near unanimously Christians and some Zoroastrians. Not Muslims

b. The Christian world also included the Roman empire - which still continued until 1453, we forget about that

c. Even west of Croatia, the "dark ages" were only from 450 to 800 in France, were barely from 453 to 640 in Italy and hardly touched Spain before the Muslim conquests.

So? Again, nothing you write contradicts what I wrote. The tech did pass through the Umma from various places to Europe. It doesn't matter if it were Christians who copied ancient texts. The Islamic civilization, such as it was, was not able or was unwilling to develop them as Christendom did (Europe). I never claimed there was a "golden age of Islam". If anything, just the opposite.

Yes, Constantinople was not completely conquered until 1453, which just emphasizes my point that Islam wasn't really contained until Europe (Christendom) developed modern technology which the Muslims and Chinese were unable or unwilling to do.

Christendom is the home and source of science and the modern age.

I am not sure what you are trying to say about the terms "dark ages" and "byzantine empire". They were not part of my thesis.

My central thesis is both the Chinese and Islam had a chance to develop the technologies that Christendom developed to conquer them before Christendom did. The Chinese and Muslim civilizations (we can add India if you like) were conquered because they were unable or unwilling to develop modern technology, mostly because their religion/political organization were unable or unwilling to do so.

27 posted on 12/08/2021 7:54:48 PM PST by marktwain (Amazing people can read a persons entire personality and character from one photograph.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies ]


To: marktwain
You are putting your words in my text. - I definitely did. I apologize

For point #1 I wanted to point out that Christianity should not be considered a European only or even European mainly religion

The reason I emphasise on that is because of the wealth of history and knowledge in the Church of the East

#2 The tech did pass through the Umma from various places to Europe -- and that's where I disagree with you. In what I've seen, the level of that is exaggerated - a lot of what "the West" got was not from or through the umma, but either internally or from Christian sources in Constantinople and from the Church of the east

My central thesis is both the Chinese and Islam had a chance to develop the technologies that Christendom developed to conquer them before Christendom did. The Chinese and Muslim civilizations (we can add India if you like) were conquered because they were unable or unwilling to develop modern technology, mostly because their religion/political organization were unable or unwilling to do so. -- That, I agree with.

28 posted on 12/09/2021 4:47:15 AM PST by Cronos ( One cannot desire freedom from the Cross, especially when one is especially chosen for the cross)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson