[Bob434]

We never ever earn salvation by our obedience- it is always a free gift of righteousness from Christ- He imparts His righteousness onto us- our own ‘righteousness’ or ‘righteous acts’ is always stained with sin- Christ’s is not, and His perfection is what saves us- not our works- lest any man should boast- That much is very clear from God’s word-

in order to be in heaven where no sin can be, we MUST be cleansed completely clean by the only one who was ever sinless- Christ- IF we are to have any part in our own salvation, We mar it terribly by our very sin nature which is always sinning- always- Our righteous acts are as filthy rags the bible tells us= and our filthy rags stained with sin can never save us or make us pure as is needed for us to live in heaven where no sin can dwell- We can never turn so completely from sin that we are ‘righteous enough by our own efforts” to save or even maintain our own salvation

Thank God that it is not up to us to be saved or to maintain our salvation because noone woudl ever be saved if that were the case-

IF a person could save themselves, or maintain their salvation through their own righteous living, sin stained as it is, then that is a braggadocios act that declares that that person has earned his way into heaven by his own ‘good deeds’ (which again, remember the bible tells us are filthy rags)

Where God is no sin can be- That is why he had to kick Satan and his followers out- God’s righteousness can not dwell with unrighteous- and the bible tells us that there is not one righteous person- none- ONLY Christ’s righteousness imputed to us makes us whole and pure and able to stand i n the presence of God=- Forgiven and pure and sinless- Again, if it were up to us, there is no way we could stand in His presence because of our sin nature which is always sinning- Christ’s blood covers ALL of our sins- it has to- because our ‘good deeds’ can never cover our sins- not even a tiny portion of them-

We stand blameless before God precisely because Christ covered ALL of our sins, past present and future- otherwise no man could ever make it to heaven because not only do we sin by committing acts, but we also sin in ways we don’t even realize, and Any sin in a person can not be brought into heaven- when a person dies with sin i n their life- either realized or unrealized, they would be bringing that sin into heaven with them IF IT WERE NOT for the covering blood of Christ which makes us white as snow- Pure, Sinless in terms of Salvation through Christ (that does not mean we can’t sin as humans, but our eternal destination is sealed by Christ’s Saving purifying blood)

[MurphsLaw]

Thanks Bob  - diagnostic stuff

Nothing serious yet...

  Yesterday’s Mass Gospel for us was so dang ironic… I wanted to get to my Ipad badly…The Mass Liturgy runs in a 3 year cycle- where we read 90% of the Bible- and then start all over again. (I think that is awesome exposure - compared to the individual systems where the Preacher gets to pick the Gospels he (or she) want to talk about, avoiding that which they don’t)
Anyway its always helpful when the Mass reading just happens to coincide with freeper discussion. But the Gospel reading was Christ telling us it’s better to go to Heaven maimed- by cutting off hand or foot, or plucking out an eye.... rather than live a life with sin. For Christ to Live in us... we must take sin seriously and fight it every step of the way. Confession and Repentance

  Were still far apart on things we don’t agree on – but can’t lose sight on what we do agree on.  But you have to agree the principles of faith you hold onto did not exist for the first 1500 years of Christianity. You can interpret them out of the Bible...but these doctrines don’t appear until the 16 th century.

Briefly on the branches-  it is talking aobut unsaved Jews being cast away and burned- Jews who claimed to be ‘religious’; but who never accepted Christ-

That's how we look back on it... reading into history. But Paul is talking in his day... about the chosen (saved) Jews who rejected the Law of Moses etc. ... they being of the Chosen Natural branch God did not spare...
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 

"Did not spare" can only mean a verifiable past action, such as the disobedient breaking of his Covenantal law... not a present tense reference to Jews in Rome not converting.
Nor did the Churches in Rome have the Judiazer issue and so Paul was writing to already saved converted Jews in the Church of Rome.
But THE FOCUS of the verse is not really on the who, the subject, Christians in Rome, but how good chose and chooses that which he will "spare" and not spare. For even his FIRST chosen people he may not spare...

those who say “Lord Lord” who will go to hell- or be burned up- ...Those are hte ones Christ spoke of who when i nheaven say “Lord, have we not prophesied in your name?” and Christ says to them “Depart from Me I never knew you”
Note carefully- He said he “NEVER” knew them- in otherwords, they claimed to be Christians, but they Never accepted Him as Savior- they were CINO’s, Christians in name only- ie unsaved- always-

I agree... absolutely. Christ never knew THEM... but they believed THEY KNEW CHRIST... and lived a life "believing" they knew him...

WHY did Christ NOT know them?

So WHAT MAKES someone a CINO?

It has to be something THEY DID or DID NOT DO.... Correct?
Although it is not for us to make this call, we have a big problem with Biden and Pelosi... and even clergy involved in sexual abuse.
  For they were also BAPTIZED INTO JESUS CHRIST (Galatians) by and with unmerited Grace , confirmed with the Holy Spirit... and claim they are worthy to take the Body of Christ into their Body  (whether others don't believe in the Eucharist- THEY do, and claim this their whole life
They claim to be Christians...(not up to me to decide).... are they saved- or were they never Christians to begin with? You see the problem with CINO? One can delude themselves into thinking they are saved.. but if tomorrow they confessed and repented they can be restored to their post-Justification regeneration... but while they cling to sin as the unbaptized do.... they are lost. When obviously, they are disobeying God, like Adam did, like Judas did.

When He says that Christ will Never lose ANY of those that God gives to Him- He means just that- a Saved person can Never be lost- Ever=- otherwise God is a liar- If And a person can go their whole life saved, then make commit a7g terrible sin and die doing so- and that person is lost- then Gold’s word is false-

Well Judas was lost... and was not a surprise... and that doesn’t make God a liar. But I don’t agree you can read that verse in an absolute that NONE will be lost... it’s God’s Will that none be lost... but it does not say absolutely In the end none will actually be lost ... just like where Paul says it is God’s desire that ” All men be saved and come to know the truth”... well we know God’s desire is one thing.... but We know not all will be saved.... similarly some will be lost.

My bible tells me that when a person is saved, —NO— man can pluck that person out of God’s hands- and that includes the man or woman themselves- My bible tells me that —NO— soul given to Christ by God will be lost- None- The verses you cited talk about people Christ —NEVER— Knew, not even briefly- when He said Never, He meant Never- they were never saved-

You read that verse differently or cannot see what Catholics see when they read it:

”I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, AND NO ONE will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, AND NO ONE is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
And also like:
For I am sure that ...... neither death nor life,
nor angels nor rulers,
nor things present
nor things to come,
nor powers,
nor height nor depth,
nor anything else in all creation,
will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In John it’s says No One... can take you or I from God’s hands... we agree on this... no one outside of ourselves.... BUT.IT.DOES.NOT. Say we cannot remove ourselves from God’s hands... ONLY that no one can do that TO US....
St. Paul gets a little more detailed...but again...he outlines quite clearly... NOTHING EXTERNAL TO US can separate us from Christ... but what is MISSING?
“nor ourselves” ..... that we can we be separated by our own doing... I doesn’t say that....Interestingly enough too... and there’s no time to go down that path...but St. Paul finishes with, “nor anything else in ALL creation”.....
Well guess what we battle with everyday that Paul left off the list... and is NOT part of God’s creation?
sin !

[[And not the one the Holy Spirit has guided since the beginning.]] You are giving an opinion and are giving an opinion and frankly a wrong opinion- My bible is full of assurance of Salvation verses-

Not opinion. No where in Church history has this been debated- or opposed as a heresy until reformers of the 16th century. Your reading into history that Church Fathers and theologians throughout history read these “salvation” verses the same way you do... they simply didn’t - and there is no evidence to support your claim of a wrong opinion. It was an idea of the moderns enlightenment.

[[Do you really think St. PAUL was intentionally speaking gibberish about “working out his salvation...”?]] Wow- ok- just briefly- again- working out does not mean ‘working for’- it means working out the gifts which are given the CHristian - IF we have to maintain our salvation, then God’s gift of salvation is no longer a FREE gift, but an earned reward-

Yes I know “work” is a trigger buzz word. But THAT is not important...If Paul believed in guaranteed salvation.... this verse what not even need to exist. Perhaps Paul had knowledge of the Scripture where Jesus infers that one CAN lose their reward when he said:

+++” For truly, I say to you, whoever gives you a cup of water to drink because you bear the name of Christ, will by no means lose his reward. +++Reward-singular)

Who knows where Paul’s preaching is derived from... often though he tells us it what was given him by Christ... and while one may find comfort in “controversial” contestable verses... or contested context even.... the 30,000 ft view is undeniable.
Remember... the epistles are THE EARLIEST writings... much before the Gospels as we know today were yet written.... so Paul was already preaching about sin before the other writers got going.
So can you disagree with the fact that a good majority of Paul’s epistles are writing to his disciples- his converted Christians in Corinth, Galatia Ephesus... and later Phillipi...- saved believing converts - who are in a mess because they are living sinful lives and doing sinful things because they feel they are now immune from judgement of any sin?
If sin could not impact their being in Christ - why all the fuss? Why the fuss over bringing condemnation to the Corinthinians for profaning the Body of Christ in the Eucharist... if they are eternally saved where no such sin could ever separate them? I hope you see what I’m getting at... don’t get hung up on fear... or trembling... but that these passages are being attended to in the first place.
There is absolutely no reason for St. Paul to chastise those disciples who are falling into sin.... NOT following the agospel he had given them.. if there was no serious consequence for their behavior. It does not follow.

Hebrews goes further:
26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?

In John 10:28-30, Jesus says: “I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”)

IF we have to work to keep our salvation then what are the lines for keeping it? Not committing 5 sins a day? 10? 1? 20? The man who says he is sinless is a liar- ALL sin is serious- No matter how inconsequential it may seem to someone- ALL sin separates us from God

Counting sins? what you just wrote is something a non-believer encounters a Christian with. Yes we sin. And we have been given the redemption by which our sins are forgiven. But 2 things must happen here... ONE .. we have to ASK to be forgiven.. and secondly ...we must forgive OTHERS their trespasses against us... or we will not be forgiven by God either.
So yes, again we must “DO” something to cooperate with the Grace God has given us-unmerited.
Yes, it would seem Christ is quite demanding of us.... “Count the cost...” we are cautioned... “Be perfect,as your Father in Heaven is perfect” Yes, it is not going to be easy...Remember though... ONLY UNREPENTANT sin can keep us from God.... as God is a Merciful God.... when we show we are deserving of his mercy....

As C.S. Lewis wrote about Christians...sure we will sin... but it’s how we pick ourselves back up and get going again is what determines Our sincerity... Godknows our hearts... there’s no fooling God In that process....

Paul spoke to a couple of churches that were severely back-slidden- severely carnal, Like committing ‘really big sins’ as a way of life- He spoke to them NOT as ‘Former brothers and sisters in Christ” but as “Fellow Brothers and sisters in Christ”- They were not working to maintain their salvation, nor did Paul expect them to- He did warn them that they were in danger of chastisement if they didn’t start to obey God- and he did encourage them to remember their first love and get back to it- He spoke to them as Saved people- not as unsaved people who had lost their salvation- That fact too can not be over looked

Chastisement? Why? Why would the be chastised for sins we know we are humanly unable to avoid? Either sin matters or it doesn’t... there’s no partial view of sin...
If their sins are simply now covered up.... there should be no problem... hell, “sin boldly... but believe more boldly”... That’s NOT what Paul is saying to those Churches...in fact he lets them know on a personal level...

”
 But I discipline my body and keep it under control,[b] lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.”

Again.... make no sense in a once saved always saved theology... none whatsoever.


Again- I’m not going to go over all the controversial verses in the bible- if you don’t wish to believe that Christ will never lose any of His own that are given to Him, then i don’;t know what to tell you- other than do a serious study on ‘assurances of salvation in the bible’ with commentary on the verses-

I agree ... scripture quote mining is not what we do. Don’t misunderstand me. There ARE assurances of salvation for us in the Bible for sure... the fact we find them not to be automatic and absolute does not make our situation dire at all.
There are assurances... but we must cooperate with those Graces we receive everyday of our lives the best we can... we are called to be Holy... not simply re-assured....
The New Testament would be a much thinner book if sin and sinfulness were not considered critical to our “persevering to the end”   
Again- I’m not going to go over all the controversial verses in the bible- if you don’t wish to believe that Christ will never lose any of His own that are given to Him, then i don’;t know what to tell you- other than do a serious study on ‘assurances of salvation in the bible’ with commentary on the verses-

I agree ... scripture quote mining is not what we do well... too many interpretations that can render scripture meaningless... except for on an individual level...

Don’t misunderstand me. I know and believe there ARE assurances of salvation for us in the Bible for sure... the fact we find them NOT to be automatic and absolute does not make our situation Any the more dire at all.
There are assurances... but we must cooperate with those Graces we receive everyday of our lives the best we can... we are called to be Holy... not simply re-assured....
The New Testament would be a much thinner book if sin and sinfulness were not considered critical to our “persevering to the end”