Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Could you ever prove a miracle to a non-believer?
Hotair via New York Times ^ | 12/25/2022

Posted on 12/25/2022 3:02:47 PM PST by SeekAndFind

[EXCERPT ONLY]

In 2009, on a grant from the John Templeton Foundation, the Browns flew to Mozambique to investigate the healing claims of Global Awakening and Iris Global, two ministries focused on healing and revival. They brought audiometry equipment and eye charts to test people who requested prayer for deafness and blindness. The sample size was small — they tested 24 people — but they found statistically significant improvement beyond placebo effects and hypnosis.

“I was standing right there next to this woman who could not tell how many fingers were held up when you were a foot in front of her,” Candy Brown told me. “Then five minutes later, she’s reading an eye chart with a smile on her face.” She and her colleagues published the results in The Southern Medical Journal — not a prestigious publication but a respectable one with peer review — and she drew on the research for her 2012 book, “Testing Prayer.”

Skeptics complained about the Browns’ methods and field conditions. They pointed out that the hearing tests were in a noisy setting, there was no control group and test subjects would naturally want to please those who prayed for them by showing results. “That simple trick explains why both hearing and sight appears to have dramatically improved among these poor, superstitious villagers,” one critic declared. (The study explained in detail how the researchers did their best to weed out false data.)

If you want to evaluate people’s experiences at a revival in rural Africa, you probably need to give up on double-blind studies in a perfectly controlled environment. But let’s imagine for a moment that researchers could meet such standards (and that an all-powerful deity humors us and submits to this scrutiny). They might persuade skeptics that something strange happened. But is there any evidence that would persuade a nonbeliever that God was behind it — that we do not live in a closed system in which all causation is a matter of natural laws?


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Religion & Culture; Religion & Science; Theology
KEYWORDS: miracle; nonbelievers; proof
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 121-140 next last
To: SeekAndFind
So, don’t jut accept a miracle when you see it. KNOW THE SOURCE.

But how?

Regards,

41 posted on 12/26/2022 1:19:29 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
Miracles happen all the time. However, after a short time, most people forget about them. Only a few people that are aware of this forgetfulness can remember them, and only then if they have made some effort to remember. Making this worse is that miracles tend to be “one-shots” in a given place and time, and with only certain people.

You seem to know quite a lot about the subject!

Are your statements based (only) upon your own philosophical musings, or your actual experiences, or anecdotes that you have occasionally heard, or are you drawing from a published learned treatise on the subject?

Regards,

42 posted on 12/26/2022 1:26:35 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: tjd1454
The book of Genesis provides the only eminently reasonable explanation: “In the beginning God created...”

Not true! Practically every religion has its own holy scriptures or at least oral traditions and its own "creation myth."

Which of the thousands have you chosen to believe?

Regards,

43 posted on 12/26/2022 1:29:03 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: alexander_busek
Not true! Practically every religion has its own holy scriptures or at least oral traditions and its own "creation myth." Which of the thousands have you chosen to believe?

Mine.

Mine is the only RIGHT one.

44 posted on 12/26/2022 1:29:57 AM PST by Lazamataz (The firearms I own today, are the firearms I will die with. How I die will be up to them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Lazamataz
Mine is the only RIGHT one.

And, coincidentally, it just happens to be the same religion dominating the culture in which you grew up?

Regards,

45 posted on 12/26/2022 1:31:17 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: alexander_busek

Ditzy daughter. Wow. What a supposition. Someone just converted to Christ and you make fun of it. Please remember one day you will stand before God and be judged.


46 posted on 12/26/2022 1:36:16 AM PST by jy8z
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: jy8z
Ditzy daughter. Wow. What a supposition. Someone just converted to Christ and you make fun of it. Please remember one day you will stand before God and be judged.

Cool down! It was only a supposition! One of several plausible explanations that could be reasonably advanced without resorting to divine intervention!

Your own statement that your daughter had previously believed in "multiple gods" (a "ditzy" belief if there ever was one!) suggests that she is member of the "Bizarre Belief of the Month Club."

Next month, she'll probably be putting her faith in crystals, or astrology, or reincarnation, or some other nonsense.

I would hardly call someone who "flips" on a dime from believing in a whole pantheon of gods to just one "stable."

Regards,

47 posted on 12/26/2022 1:42:25 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: alexander_busek
I wasn't the original poster of that statement. I butted in to tell you what I think of your post. Please pay attention and follow the thread. Sheesh!

Are you drinking tonight?
48 posted on 12/26/2022 1:48:48 AM PST by jy8z
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: jy8z
I wasn't the original poster of that statement. I butted in to tell you what I think of your post. Please pay attention and follow the thread. Sheesh!

Okay! Then I revise my sentence as follows:

Your own That other poster's statement that your that other poster's daughter had previously believed in "multiple gods" (a "ditzy" belief if there ever was one!) suggests that she is member of the "Bizarre Belief of the Month Club."

Thanks for pointing that out!

Are you drinking tonight?

What do you think?! It's Christmas! Never heard of egg-nog?! Sheesh!

Regards,

49 posted on 12/26/2022 1:56:01 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: alexander_busek
What do you think?! It's Christmas! Never heard of egg-nog?

Another wrong statement. It's after 11:00 am 12/26/2022 in Germany. The day after Christmas. Put the eggnog down and go to bed.
50 posted on 12/26/2022 2:09:09 AM PST by jy8z
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
True, OTOH, Jesus did perform miracles that a bunch of people recognized as miracles at the time. Healing the paralyzed guy that had spent his entire life at the temple begging, etc.

Of course they may have believed the miracle, but did not believe in Jesus’ claims or follow him. IIRC after the feeding of the 5,000 many walked away afterwards.

51 posted on 12/26/2022 2:22:41 AM PST by 21twelve (Ever Vigilant. Never Fearful.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: tjd1454

The “Complexity” argument for intelligent design never made sense to me. We can only observe one reality. It could be “complex” or it could be “simple,” we can’t know since we have nothing to compare it to.

IOW, asserting something is “complex” begs the question, “Compared to what?”


52 posted on 12/26/2022 2:45:57 AM PST by 4Liberty (Kamala’s relatives owned slaves.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: alexander_busek

Beer nog is better;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1RN3cYnY9k


53 posted on 12/26/2022 2:50:35 AM PST by Hillarys Gate Cult (I stayed drug - free going on 63 years for this?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: alexander_busek
:Mine is the only RIGHT one."

And, coincidentally, it just happens to be the same religion dominating the culture in which you grew up?

YOU LIE!

My faith is Pastafarian.

"The central creation myth is that an invisible and undetectable Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe "after drinking heavily." According to these beliefs, the Monster's intoxication was the cause for a flawed Earth. Furthermore, according to Pastafarianism, all evidence for evolution was planted by the Flying Spaghetti Monster in an effort to test the faith of Pastafarians." Regards,

54 posted on 12/26/2022 3:58:13 AM PST by Lazamataz (The firearms I own today, are the firearms I will die with. How I die will be up to them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: jy8z
What do you think?! It's Christmas! Never heard of egg-nog?

Another wrong statement. It's after 11:00 am 12/26/2022 in Germany.

In my household, the Christmas Spirit prevails the whole holiday season!

(hic!)

Regards,

55 posted on 12/26/2022 4:09:54 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: 4Liberty
IOW, asserting something is “complex” begs the question, “Compared to what?”

Compared to the countless universes in which life never arose!

(The Anthropic Principle)

Thus, I agree with you!

Regards,

56 posted on 12/26/2022 4:12:14 AM PST by alexander_busek (Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: SeekAndFind
Dawkins [basically] Admits Nothing Can Persuade Him God Exists

Yet atheism is itself is a position that requires much faith. Meaning that an exceedingly vast, well-ordered, systematic universe, finely tuned for extensive earthly life with its exquisite diversity and astounding complexity, came to be by purely natural powers, without a supreme intelligence behind it. Which indeed requires much faith.

And "proof" depends upon the definition of the term. “Proof” can mean having sufficient warrant for a verdict, and much can be offered for the existence of at least a supreme intelligence, a creator and designer[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] - which logically would infer omnipotence and omnipotence - as well as substantive testimony for the God of the Bible being that Creator, including working in the lives of believers today. [14]

Footnotes

[1]
https://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/designun.html
[2]
Design from Fine-Tuning | Reasonable Faith
[3]
'God: new evidence' - the fine tuning of the universe - part 1
[4]
When science and philosophy collide in a 'fine-tuned' universe
[5]
We Live in a Very Fortunate Universe
[6]
10 Fun Facts about DNA | DNACenter.com - DDC
[7]
https://spaceupper.com/god-dna-proves-presence-of-god-says-scientists/
[8]
Evolutionary surprise: Eight percent of human genetic material comes from a virus
[9]
The Universe as We Understand It May Be Impossible
[10]
Dawkins Admits Nothing Can Persuade Him God Exists
[11]
Is There Any Evidence for Jesus Outside the Bible?
[12]
Ancient Evidence for Jesus from Non-Christian Sources
[13]
Extra-Biblical Historical Evidence for Christianity
[14]
Amazing Stories, Christian Testimonies, Healing Miracles and Inspirational Stories

57 posted on 12/26/2022 4:15:18 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him who saves, be baptized + follow Him!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: alexander_busek
Compared to the countless universes in which life never arose!

You are assuming facts not in evidence.

Show me one of these universes, or you simply made it up.

58 posted on 12/26/2022 4:16:02 AM PST by Lazamataz (The firearms I own today, are the firearms I will die with. How I die will be up to them.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: daniel1212
Replace footnote [1] (presently a 404) with The Privileged Planet
59 posted on 12/26/2022 4:21:55 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him who saves, be baptized + follow Him!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: 4Liberty
The “Complexity” argument for intelligent design never made sense to me. We can only observe one reality. It could be “complex” or it could be “simple,” we can’t know since we have nothing to compare it to. IOW, asserting something is “complex” begs the question, “Compared to what?”

Compared to what mere chance examples. Meanwhile, to deny that an exceedingly vast, well-ordered, systematic universe, finely tuned for extensive earthly life with its exquisite diversity and astounding complexity, came to be by purely natural powers, without a supreme intelligence behind it, itself requires much faith. As said above.

60 posted on 12/26/2022 4:26:41 AM PST by daniel1212 (Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned+destitute sinner, trust Him who saves, be baptized + follow Him!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 121-140 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson