Posted on 03/18/2024 5:34:35 PM PDT by grumpa
Some things Christians believe are curious to me. For example, many conservative evangelical Christians, the group which I generally consider myself to be a part, proudly say, “We take the Bible literally.” Indeed, they use this statement as a test for orthodoxy. Well, here are few questions I’d like to ask them:
• When Jesus said that He is the vine (John 15:5), did He mean that He is a plant?
• Is God literally a rock (2 Samuel 22:3; Psalm 18:2, etc.)?
• Should we literally hate our mother and father so that we can be Jesus’ disciple (Luke 14:26)?
• If your eye causes you to sin, should you literally pluck it out, as Jesus said (Mark 9:47)?
• Must we sell everything we have and give it to the poor in order to inherit eternal life (Luke 18:18-22)?
• Is it necessary to literally eat Christ’s body in order to have life (John 6:53)?
• Did the mountains and the hills really break into song and the trees clap their hands (Isaiah 55:12)?
• Is it literally true that serpents and scorpions cannot harm Christians (Luke 10:19)?
• Would the moon literally turn to blood before the Day of the Lord (Joel 2:31)?
• When God judged Babylon, an event in actual history, did the stars and sun literally stop giving their light (Isaiah 13:10) and the heavens literally tremble (Isaiah 13:13)? When God judged Edom, did the sky literally roll up like a scroll (Isaiah 34:4)? When God judged Israel, according to Micah 1:2-16, did the mountains literally melt and the valleys split? When God judged Egypt, did He literally come riding on a cloud (Isaiah 19:1)? Read these passages and numerous others like them in the Bible (for example, Isaiah 24:23; Ezekiel 32:7; Amos 5:20; 8:9; Zephaniah 1:15)
This is especially pertinent to Bible prophecy. In light of the last bullet point above, consider what do you think of Matthew 24:29-31 which describes Jesus’ Parousia (“Second Coming”) with similar language: sun will be darkened, stars falling from heaven, Jesus riding on a cloud, etc. This is what theologians call “Hebraic apocalyptic language.” It is poetic language usually used when YHWH (or Jesus) judged people or nations.
It is a rational inference that given the non-literal nature of the similar Old Testament passages, that similar New Testament passages are also non-literal. Such New Testament passages are about Jesus coming “in judgment” against apostate old covenant Israel in AD 70―similar to how YHWH came in judgment in the Old Testament―and not about a literal bodily appearance. This is reinforced by the numerous time statements that limit the Second Coming to the first century.
Some Christians may insist that, indeed, even these passages are to be understood “literally.” But certainly at least some of these are examples of how the Bible uses a variety of language techniques to describe real things in NON-literal language.
I have a conservative view of the Bible and believe that it is the inspired Word of God in its entirety—and that it communicates a literal sense even when it employs non-literal genres. But that does not mean that every word or phrase was meant to be taken in a wooden literal sense. The fact is that nobody is a consistent literalist, nor should anyone be!
In our everyday language, we use figures of speech so often that we do not even think about them. We sing metaphorically “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God.” We say things like “I could eat a horse,” “cat got your tongue,” “the four corners of the earth,” “the sky is falling,” “coming apart at the seams,” “he has a yellow streak down his back,” etc. We use hundreds of such idioms that are not literal, but people in our culture understand exactly what is meant.
The Bible too uses a variety of literary devices. It uses parables, poetry, hyperbole, allegories, metaphors, and many other figures of speech. In particular, it is common in the Bible to use astronomical language to describe important prophetic events. These events are often when God “came down” in judgment against the Jews or their enemies.
Hebraic terminology may be unfamiliar to us but was clearly understood by first-century Jews. Certain events prophesied in the Bible in Hebraic apocalyptic language we know for certain have already been fulfilled, such as God’s judgments upon Babylon and Edom (above).
Are there times when we should understand the Bible literally? Of course! But, should we really interpret the Bible “literally” in every instance? Of course not. It is more faithful to Scripture to interpret each passage the way it was INTENDED in its context and understood by its original audience.
Theologians call this “audience relevance.” An example is Matthew 24:34 where Jesus spoke of the timing of certain prophesied events: “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.” Here Jesus is speaking to his disciples who asked a question in response to Jesus predicting the destruction of the temple and the close of the old covenant age―at his Parousia: “Tell us, when will things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and the close of the age?” (Matthew 24:3) Many Christians today futurize “this generation” to mean some future generation. But clearly Jesus’ disciples would have understood that the things Jesus predicted would happen while some of those living in the first century were still alive.
Another important interpretive technique is using “Scripture to interpret Scripture.” For example, related to Matthew 24 is the statement Jesus made in Matthew 16:27-28― “For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming his kingdom.” This passage demands that Jesus’ Parousia would occur while some of those living in the first century were still alive―Scripture interpreting Scripture.
One can attempt to explain these things away. But this is so clear and so powerful that if Jesus failed to return when He said He would, Jesus is reduced to a false prophet and Christianity falls―as opponents of Christianity charge. Either Jesus was a false prophet, or else many Christians have a mistaken understanding of the nature of the Second Coming. A correct understanding of biblical language proves the critics of Jesus wrong. He did come in the nature and timing that He predicted.
I’m fully aware that this is new information for some. But what’s at stake is the authority of Jesus and the inerrancy of the biblical writers. At my website I have several articles going into more depth about the timing and nature of the Second Coming. I hope you find these articles helpful:
Be Strong’s
2Peter 3:8
“But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.”
We are in the last days. But this began after Christ’s first coming.
Didn’t Jesus come to John during the Revelation?
Be patient and await for the Blessed Hope.
Out of context. Go read any classic evangelical commentary and you will find that this refers to historical persons and accounts being literal, in contrast to such events as Joshua's long day and wars of conquest being labelled "fables" or folk tales, such as in the St. Joseph's Catholic study Bible referred to here.
And in addition, what we have in its totality is a revelation of complimentary consistency, with its essential and salvific message being manifestly evident, requiring more of the heart and the head. (Ps. 34:18; Acts 10:34-47), of God being holy, just yet merciful, and man being disobedient, and in need of salvation, which God provided on His own expense, received thru effectual repentant faith which is shown in obedience relative to knowledge and ability.
Yet for hose who do, there is much helpful learning in a document of almost 800,000 words, from about 40 different writers of various occupations, covering two basic covenants, and using two languages (with a third being very limited), and many literary genres (including Law, History, Wisdom, Poetry, Epistles, Prophecy, etc.) and (as with communication in a literary society) employs multitude figures of speech including euphemism, circumlocution, metaphor, allegory, allusion hyperbole, understatement, idiom, sarcasm, personification, pun, simile, synecdoche, etc.), within a vast number of contexts, and compiled over a period of approx. 1600 years while covering vast expanses of time (and existing in thousands of manuscripts of copies of copies of varying qualities)
Which thus requires consideration of context, and aspects such as literary forms, grammatical and translational aspects, covenantal distinctions. Which skeptics typically ignore, and refusing obey its basic message then they strain at gnats in order to reject the camel, alleging thousands of actual contradictions such as dealt with by multitudes of Christian exegetes.
As regards your apparently preterist preoccupation (teaches that all biblical prophecy has been completely fulfilled: the second coming, the judgment of Satan, and the kingdom of God), while not a matter of salvation, this relies in insisting only one meaning of key texts. Your graphic should have references that provide the texts.
I do not have energy to deal with them here myself, but here is a critical examination of preterism and informative reproof of Full-Preterism. https://www.bible.ca/revelation/Refuted-Full-Preterism-Realized-eschatology-debunked-exposed-second-coming-Parousia-rapture-destruction-Jerusalem-70AD-Doctrine-Revelation-Commentary.htm.
The fact that the books of the New Testament were written anywhere from 50-150 years after christ death to me makes all of them suspect to actual events and truths.There were many prophets that wrote books and it was Constantine who decided what would and what would not be included when it was put together as a whole in AD 300. Story tellers many times embelish their stories after years and years of being repeated time after time.When I was a kid in parochial school we where told that if we didn’t believe every word of the bible then we shouldn’t believe any of it which meant we would be in eternal damnation. So many scare tactics so as not to doubt one word of scripture. I guess I look forward to eternal damnation because I do not believe every word.
Have I done that?
Yes, through a Strawman argument and overgeneralization
If you are indeed an atheist (incongruous on this pro-God, pro-Bible forum) for some reason, then you also must have much faith. For to believe that an exceedingly vast, systematically ordered universe, exquisitely finely tuned for diverse corporeal life of with intricate, astounding complexity, can be all a result of purely natural processes requires much faith. More so than that the universe logically testifies to design, requiring a First Cause (at the least), that of a powerful being of supreme intelligence being behind the existence of energy and programming and thus the organization of matter.
Of course, besides proffering the possibility of an eternally per-existent universe as the First Cause (which essentially would assign powers of deity to it), some atheists will allow for the existence of aliens, which apparently defy the known laws of physics, but which must not be allowed to be supernatural, as God must be excluded even as a hypothesis.
See also post 64.
I merely said "Spiritual things are spiritually discerned". I haven't made up anything about what anybody else believes and/or criticize them for it. The strawman is you.Perhaps you are trying to expiate some feelings of guilt or your own doubts. In any case don't project your anxiety on to me. I am fine with my faith.
Also read 1 Corinthians 2:14 if you have a Bible.
By their fruit ye shall know these threads, the ones where experts use the same book to prove opposite things.
This one is big on the topic of “literal”.
Some years ago I had tracked down the context of this quote from Newton’s writings, but don’t have it off-hand. Regardless, this is what gets around:
“About the times of the End, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.”
I had considered that it didn’t necessarily mean what the usual quoters (those in the ‘literal’ camp) assumed it meant.
Could be the opposite, the indirect way of a tell, in regards to the lovers of the particular quote.
>>>there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming his kingdom<<<
Now, who literally *tastes* death? On the buds of the... tongue?
There is the Jewish tradition of ‘literal’ metaphors for microcosms — small samples, 1/60 being the representative numeric value:
>>>
The numbers five, six, and ten are mnemonics for the categories to follow. The Gemara says: There are five matters in our world which are one-sixtieth of their most extreme manifestations. They are: Fire, honey, Shabbat, sleep, and a dream. The Gemara elaborates: Our fire is one-sixtieth of the fire of Gehenna; honey is one-sixtieth of manna; Shabbat is one-sixtieth of the World-to-Come; sleep is one-sixtieth of death; and a dream is one-sixtieth of prophecy.
<<<
https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.57b.13?lang=bi
***
“sleep is one-sixtieth of death”, a small taste of.
And,
“there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming his kingdom”
And wouldn’t you know,
there are some standing here who will not sleep until they see the Son of Man coming his kingdom.
https://useful_english.en-academic.com/481167/I_will_not_rest_until...
Mark 13
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 [For the Son of man is] as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
Midnight oil, not sold in stores..
No, you setup an example of hyperliteralism, which almost NOBODY believes, and equated it with the normal belief of Christians.
That is a strawman argument and an over generalization.
So, I take it you didn’t read 1 Corinthians 2:14. Which is the sentiment I was conveying. You really should get a Bible and read it. The Gideons will provide you one if you can’t afford it. But it’s really really important to read it with an open mind and pray for spiritual guidance that the Holy Spirit may allow you to understand it. Have a good day. Peace be unto you.
BFL
If all that’s true, what are we doing NOW?
What about mine?
Good reasoning.
So do journalists today.
If they COULD be proven, then there’d be no faith.
I read about some fella that had a hundred of them.
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