Jolted workers rethink life's basics

Dallas Morning News ^ | June 26, 2004 | KATHERINE YUNG

[mabelkitty]

Wonder if he bought any IBM stock while employed with them.

[raybbr]

This is not true. My neighboor is attempting to start a new company in China. His partners in Hong Kong go to the meetings with the local government officials with suitcases filled with money. I don't know how much but he told me that nothing is done without the officials' consent and said officials will not approve any step of the company's growth without bribes.

[neutrino]

I will need to continue boycotting HP products.

You may as well - HP is outsourcing with a vengence, as I recall.

There's another point too - Carley the CEO got over $3.4 million dollars in compensation last year. I don't think she's worth it. The shareholders - the actual owners of the company - are being robbed by such as she.

If cutting costs is required, let us outsource the CEOs and reward the owners of the company. If cutting costs isn't that important, let them keep American jobs at home.

[raybbr]

This is not true. My neighboor is attempting to start a new company in China. His partners in Hong Kong go to the meetings with the local government officials with suitcases filled with money. I don't know how much but he told me that nothing is done without the officials' consent and said officials will not approve any step of the company's growth without bribes.

[neutrino]

I don't know how much but he told me that nothing is done without the officials' consent and said officials will not approve any step of the company's growth without bribes.

(Chuckle) I'd bet it's true. Thanks for the post!

[Cronos]

Really? So are you ready to say, clearly, openly, forthrightly, that you oppose sending American jobs and infrastructure offshore?

I oppose sending American jobs and infrastructure to a communist country. When we trade goods and services with democracies like the UK, Australia, India, etc. that's a different case. Our companies are making money in those countries but not in China because China oppreses it's own people.

Do I buy American? Yes. But I support everyone's freedom of choice to buy goods made elsewhere -- I buy American not for sentimental reasons but because it is better value for money -- a Chinese hammer will cost a fraction of an American but doesn't last for that same percentage of time.

NOte: Manufactured goods and IT are different.

[raybbr]

Sorry for the odd, double post. It was meant to look like this:

Cronos
There are NO Chinese masters, all the companies are American.

This is not true. My neighboor is attempting to start a new company in China. His partners in Hong Kong go to the meetings with the local government officials with suitcases filled with money. I don't know how much but he told me that nothing is done without the officials' consent and said officials will not approve any step of the company's growth without bribes.

[Cronos]

My neighboor is attempting to start a new company in China. His partners in Hong Kong go to the meetings with the local government officials with suitcases filled with money. I don't know how much but he told me that nothing is done without the officials' consent and said officials will not approve any step of the company's growth without bribes.

Is your neighbour Chinese or American?

[Cronos]

I don't think she's worth it. The shareholders - the actual owners of the company - are being robbed by such as she.

The shareholders have the right to kick her out. But they don't -- they like the profits she gives them.

[raybbr]

Is your neighbour Chinese or American?

He's American. But, the only person, in America that will benefit from his start-up will be him. He is the sole person on this side of the Pacific in the company.

My point was that no American can "own" a company in China. They may operate it but the Chinese retain total control. Without massive bribes to officials there would be no company. Hence the officials are the "owners". Also, he told me that their judicial system does not follow any laws. Any appearance before a magistrate comes down to solely his decision. He does not look for precedent. At any time they can confiscate or punish without recourse.

[raybbr]

The shareholders have the right to kick her out.

There was an article some time back about the fallacious notion of shareholders electing board members. It's a rigged game. It had to do with the board having the ability to make the rules as they go along.

[WilliamofCarmichael]

RE: "minute percentage of jobs"

A recent study suggested the minuscule spin but news articles I read stated that the study covered only limited cases involving fifty or more jobs. To wit,

"According to the BLS report, the transfer of jobs overseas accounted for only a small fraction of total jobs lost in the first quarter of this year. The agency found that of the 182,456 people laid off between January and March, only 4,633, or 2.5 percent, were axed because of 'the movement of work outside the country.'

"Critics, however, have argued that the government sampled only a limited number of companies and therefore did not paint an accurate picture of the situation. Indeed, the survey only reported on companies with a minimum of 50 workers where at least 50 employees were laid off. The BLS itself admitted that its data do 'not reflect layoffs of less than 50 at these companies, nor do they capture lay-offs occurring at establishments with less than 50 workers.'" [End excerpt]

http://www.ecommercetimes.com/story/34432.html

BTW, Meanwhile, the General Accounting Office has been ordered by Congress to produce a report on the subject within the next few months.

[End article]

There are the little matters of open markets "over there," visas and American jobs.

The U.S. trade representative Robert Zoellick has called India one of the most closed economies in the world. Well, he's not alone. Other Bush Administration officials also call for opening markets. (see ref. below) If it is free trade why cannot U.S. companies profit from trade beyond cheap labor? The Bush Administration wants fair trade, you don't have to be a Bush-hater to want fair trade.

With L-1, and other visas (almost one million of them according to this article) "cheap" labor is now being imported as well. At least the estimated 800,000 H1B workers of a few years ago were required to be paid prevailing wages. L-1 is replacing H1B. L-1's are TDY here and get per diem. Unlike H1B's they pay no income, etc. tax, I believe.

http://www.navhindtimes.com/stories.php?part=news&Story_ID=062418

Almost one million visas plus the tech jobs outsourced off-shore. That is not minuscule.

[megatherium]

Abbeville Conservative: Just where do you suggest consumers buy products that aren't made in China? Many times I've gone through the exercise of trying to find a clock, television, dvd player, etc that was made in the good old USA. I failed miserably each time.

You're quite right, of course. In many categories of consumer products such as consumer electronics, it's pretty much too late. For electronics, if you're an audiophile with a serious toy budget, you can choose American. Fortunately, for some categories of products, such as major appliances and furniture, there's still a choice.

[Cronos]

Your very own post says that : The agency found that of the 182,456 people laid off between January and March, only 4,633, or 2.5 percent, were axed because of 'the movement of work outside the country

For companies with less than 50 workers, they wouldn't outsource -- it wouldnt' make economic sense.

[gogipper]

Yes, yes, we live in a republic..yawn... by the textbook... I won't make that mistake again (not). But when we are discussing the micro associations that we actually are in (e.g. the workplace) we should think in terms of democracy.

Pursuing a work environment commensurate with education and skills are fine. Whining that co-workers in a current environment are not as educated or 'deserving' is elitist. Nekolturny?

[Cronos]

At least the estimated 800,000 H1B workers of a few years ago were required to be paid prevailing wages

Where did you get that 800K figure?

[Cronos]

If it is free trade why cannot U.S. companies profit from trade beyond cheap labor?

US companies already profit in India -- India's soft drink sector is dominated by Coke and Pepsi and it's white goods is dominated by Whirlpool (with stiff competition from Korean manufacturers)

[megatherium]

Porterville: Boo fricin' hoo, get a job making less money, problem solved. Pride is a false virtue- a computer geek should know that after all those hours playing Ultima instead of chasing tail.

There are a lot of computer science students who were attracted to the biz because it was fashionable being a hacker or because they enjoyed the software counter-culture. But when they're up all night trying to get their program to work (the program that reads in the list of names, alphabetizes them by last name and formats them nicely), they start to realize that maybe this isn't for them. Or maybe it's the calculus class; they get lost somewhere between integration-by-parts or trigonometric substitutions. Some of them scrape by by cheating: they scrounge code off of friends or the internet.

In earlier tech downturns, the wanna-bes and incompetents might have been weeded out. But now we see experienced, productive people -- many with fully up-to-date skill sets -- having trouble with their careers. This may well be a temporary phenomonon in an industry with a history of being cyclic. But the key point, again, is that the jobs haven't ended, they've moved, in a manner I believe to be unfair to Americans.

Currently, I am told by a colleague, if you have a PhD in computer science, you are still very much in demand. Is that where our economy is heading? Winner-take-all, with a few haves at the top? I don't think it's a good idea to have an economy where you're expected to have a doctoral degree to be successful. We're in danger of voters comparing the present economy this fall with the one five years ago.

[William Terrell]

Whining that co-workers in a current environment are not as educated or 'deserving' is elitist.

Why? I judge who are my social equals, exclusively. If I choose not to associate with some others, so what? Would you support legislation to force me to associate with those with whom I don't want to associate?

People have always had that choice, are doing that, and will always do that. All utopias of perfect egalitarianism have been broken on the wheel of human nature. History is littered with their remains.

Yes, yes, we live in a republic..yawn... by the textbook... I won't make that mistake again (not).

You better by God hope we still live in a republic. A republic is a system of government decisions made by laws. A democracy is a system of governemnt decisions made by men. You should read about the fate of the Greek democracies.

[Jack Black]

Get real. The computer industry was targeted by greedy US manufacturers along with the people they pay off in the Congress. As a direct result something like 1 million Indian and Chinese programmers were brought into the USA. Many on contracts that cost companies 1/2 the prevailing wage. I worked at such a company. One day managers were told "you need to use Tata (Indian consultants) for all new hires. I talked to the Tatas. They lived in company provided apartments, 4 employees to one apartment. They were paid a stipend for living expenses and a flat fee for completing their contract of something like $50,000 on return to India (for two years).

What's your job? It is hard to imagine any profession that could withstand a targeted program like that. Health Care costs have certainly NOT gone in the direction of computing costs, which have been 10x cheaper every few years for 20 years. Why not bring in 1,000,000 Indian doctors? Pay them 1/2 to 1/3 the prevailing wage. Put them on contracts. Five years in a clinic, a $200,000 fee when they return home. (Sure, their M.D. degrees won't be as rigorous as the US ones, but then neither are all the Indian "Ph.D.s" in computer science.)

And no, I have never been laid off. So I have nothing to be personally upset about, so don't start with the "you can't hack competition" crap. I have withstood all this and am prospering, but it doesn't make it right, it doesn't make it good for the USA. The Indians are tools of greed heads like Scott McNealy and the other Silicon Valley zillionaires who lobbied and paid for this program. Now they are just sending the entire offices over there.