Russia says Moskva warship has sunk after reported missile strike

MSN ^

[navysealdad]

Ukraine claims responsibility for attack on flagship of Russia’s Black Sea fleet, though Moscow says cause of explosion yet to be determined.

[Spktyr]

Yes and no. She sacrificed a lot to be able to carry those sixteen cap ship killers on her deck. She did have eight VLS clusters, each carrying eight SA-N-6 long range SAMs - roughly similar to our Standard missiles. (These are public domain images, not classified any more these days, and are old shots of her sister ship, the Marshal Ustinov, but the Moskva had this same config.)

It also has two twenty cell short range SA-N-4 launchers towards the stern. (The two white 'half beer cans.')

It also has not one, not two, but *six* CIWS equivalents mounted to it. These are generally only usable for self-defense at knife range and not sector defense.

She didn't get the big late 2010s update that her sister got, so she's actually got (or had) the 1990-1998 refit radars. It also only got small, partial refits and those when the ship could be spared from duty. It's not the 1983 standard, but it's not its sister ship, the Marshal Ustinov. That one got a full overhaul and update as of 2018.

One of the things missing from the Moskva was a full datalink. The Moskva was not able to fight datalinked with the modern Russian fleet - so it could basically only fight to defend itself with some token 'area defense' capability, which was reportedly not good. The Russians didn't develop battle networks until the 2000s and the Moskva got left behind.

Compare that to a US Burke class destroyer: 96 VLS cells, datalink capable, one CIWS (sometimes two), recent radar upgrades. So what you have is a cruiser that's *less* capable of air defense than a Burke destroyer in general and far less capable of group or sector defense. It can defend a flotilla in the sense that any modern naval vessel with AA armament can, but it is far more oriented towards *self* defense (note the large number of short range only defense missiles and CIWS installations) than intentional group or sector defense. It sacrificed that capability to be able to mount that sixteen cap ship killer missile punch.

Put another way, there are upgraded Udaloy-class destroyers (older than the Moskva) that have better AA than the Moskva had.

[NonValueAdded]

One report said the ship was under tow when hit. So it was already having a bad day.

[Paladin2]

Thanks.

Seems like the details are important/critical.

A System solution is an improvement with integrated, widely distributed sensors/processing and selectable response capability along with capacity to deal with a yuge number of incoming.

[Spktyr]

Yeah, the Moskva’s operational concept was basically to launch all sixteen SS-N-12 missiles, then once it was no longer a floating tinderbox, run away back to port to reload while trusting its self-defense AA to keep it safe from contact hits from antishipping missiles. If the missiles were not fired, well, even frag from destroyed incoming missiles could set off an SS-N-12 in a box launcher.

It was a deliberate design tradeoff, and used correctly would be absolutely worthwhile from their point of view. Moskva and her sisters were the smallest hull that could fit sixteen SS-N-12s in any form, and that meant box launchers. An enormous punch when those SS-N-12s were conventionally tipped as per normal practice - absolutely devastating when equipped with the optional nuclear tips. In theory, the Moskva could at least mission kill an entire US carrier battle group by itself.

[catnipman]

“The question is was the fire a missile strike or smoking rooskie sailors spilling high test wodka around?”

either way, doesn’t speak well of the russkie navy ... supposedly, the russkies moved the rest of their fleet a further 80 KM out to sea, which would indicate a missile if true ...

[catnipman]

“Because Putin didn’t defeat Ukraine, he opened himself up to Western resupply of his opponent.”

and while supposedly one of putin’s aims was to keep the ukes out of nato, finland and sweden, who earlier had been on the fence, are now petrified of also being invaded and are now desperate to join nato ... so yet another strategic goal of putin has backfired ...

plus, as long as putin occupies any newly captured uke territory, the recent draconian sanctions, both government and private industry, will remain indefinitely, resulting in an already economically anemic russia collapsing ... the privations dementia joe has visited upon us will pale in comparison to what putin will be inflicting on his own people ......

[steve86]

Deployed directed energy weapons will barely sink a row boat, if that, hardly a missile cruiser. But can confuse or take down a close-in smaller drone.

[epluribus_2]

Greek Fire

[epluribus_2]

Greek Fire

[ETCM]

Moskva’s Top Dome fire control radar can target 3 targets and direct 2 missiles at each. Even if the fire control radar is busy, that doesn’t stop the ship from detecting incoming missiles with it’s 3D air search radar. If I’m engaging a couple small drones and I detect incoming missiles, I will break engagement of the drones if necessary to free up my fire control directors. The ship could also have engaged the missiles with its short range SA-N-4 missiles or with their CIWS. I suspect we will never hear the Russian side of what happened, but I’d guess they never saw the missiles coming. Sea skimming missiles are easy to lose in sea clutter, especially when the operator reduces radar sensitivity to cut down on excessive false tracks. Being distracted by drones might have contributed.

[Phoenix8]

Pravda says it sunk during a storm but was being towed after a fire.

A lot of interesting theories are being put forward but I think sabotage should be considered as well. Remember this guy?

https://www.dailyindependent.com/news/kentucky-sailor-named-as-suspect-in-ship-fire/article_8378f3c0-f639-11eb-b045-0f0fb23e65ee.html

[Covenantor]

Finally watched the video...Sorry I posted that link to the 60 Minutes short. Title and thumbnail pure clickbait...

[Jimmy Valentine]

Good possibility. The Russians have been experimenting with rocket and torpedo propellants which are extremely volatile and unstable. We tried several variants and found them too unstable to use. This is what caused the explosion and sinking of the Kursk.

[Jimmy Valentine]

If my memory is working properly, the Navy did conduct war games in the Gulf. A very crafty Admiral used a swarming technique of small fast boats to overwhelm the defenses and was very successful. The Navy changed the results. This is kind of like Admiral Kings war game attack on Pearl Harbor in the 1930’s which the Japanese reprised December 7th.

[PIF]

The Neptune has a reported range of 190 miles. So way way off shore.

[PIF]

How well would the Navy do if they were attacked by dummy stealthy drones and shore to ship missiles in conjunction with an attack by suicidal swift boats and air attack?
—

A-10s, AC-130Js and M-142 HIMARs on standby. Also ships have been equipped with various anti-drone systems

[allendale]

That is exactly the problem. During peacetime politically adept pole climbers make their way to the military’s upper echelon, got there often by promoting the vested agendas of people in and out of the military and are rarely creative thinkers or classic warriors. “Battleship Admirals” and “hidebound” generals who are at their core politicians in every major conflict get young people killed. Its not a given that in war they will be replaced by competent people.

[Myrddin]

Sea skimming missiles are easy to lose in sea clutter, especially when the operator reduces radar sensitivity to cut down on excessive false tracks. Being distracted by drones might have contributed.

Agree. I've done a fair bit with marine radars in the fishing fleet in the late 70s. Sea clutter really does obscure the signal. I did some work in development of a linear CW FM radar as a means of detection of moving objects. It works well against a static background, but I haven't tried it in a sea clutter type scenario.

Thanks for the update on capability of the radar on the Russian vessel. I'm not sure how much the OSINT types on Twitter know about the capabilities.

[Hugh the Scot]

Directed energy weapons, aimed into an ammunition stores area might sink a rowboat…