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Taxation is Theft
sourcery | 15 April 2002 | sourcery

Posted on 04/16/2002 2:29:49 AM PDT by sourcery

 Taxation Is Theft

What is the moral justification for taxation?  What gives the government the right to collect taxes by force, whether force of law or force of arms--which in the end amount to the same thing?

The coerced collection of taxes is allegedly justified by four arguments--all of which are demonstrably false:

1. The "majority rules" argument: The majority in a society has the right to impose its will on the minority, either absolutely, or within the limits prescribed by a Constitution.

The refutation: It's been said that a democracy is where two wolves and a sheep vote on what (or who) is for dinner. The moral to be understood from this is that a vote by the wolfish majority to have the sheepish minority for dinner does not justify violating the rights of the sheep to life, liberty and property. By the same reasoning,  just because a majority votes to put those who don't "voluntarily" pay taxes in jail does not make it morally right.

The "majority rules" argument is based on the false premise that what just one of your neighbors would not have the right to do--appropriate your property using unjustified coercive force--society as a whole (who are just the aggregation of all your neighbors) somehow magically is morally justified in doing. Were this so, what principle would limit it just to taxes, or to just those things allowed by a Constitution?  Where did society get the authority to use a Constitution to give its agent, the government, powers that none of the individuals in the society possess by themselves as single individuals?

If your neighbor does not have the right to force you to be his slave, could it be that two of your neighbors have this right? If not two, then what about 1000 of your neighbors? 10,000 neighbors? 100,000 neighbors? 250,000,000 neighbors? Everyone living on the same continent?  What gives a group (or a society, or its agent, a government) any right to act that any individual member of the group would not have? Rights are not additive: two people who form a group have no more rights than either one has separately. The rights of any group, even society as whole, are simply the union of the rights of all the individuals in the group. It therefore necessarily follows that a group cannot have any rights that any individual member of the group does not also have. So if your neighbor has no just right to simply take from you whatever he or she wants, then neither do any group of neighbors--not even the entire society.

The conclusion is inescapable: you don't owe taxes merely because one or more of your neighbors say you do. I don't have the right to take your property without your consent.  Therefore, no group of people has the right to take your property without your consent--no matter how many people are in the group, nor how many of them vote in favor.

2. The "debt for services rendered and benefits received" argument: Government provides benefits and services. The recipients of said benefits and services owe the government something of value in exchange.  Furthermore, society is entitled to a "payback from," or "return on its investment in," each member of the society, and a "return on its investment" in the infrastructure of the society, payable as "dividends" from the earnings of the individuals who live in and benefit from the society and its infrastructure.

The refutation: The argument is flawed in several ways. Firstly, it falsely assumes that a valid debt is created whenever someone receives either direct (or collateral) benefit(s) as a result of actions voluntarily performed by someone else--even when the person receiving the benefit(s) did not consent to the creation of a debt, and even when the person performing the action(s) was largely motivated to perform those actions in his own self interest and for his own benefit.  Secondly, it falsely assumes that every taxpayer was a willing participant in a commercial transaction, where he agreed to pay a freely-negotiated price for some service or benefit. Thirdly, it falsely assumes that the amount of tax a taxpayer is assessed is reasonably proportionate to the market value of the services or benefits he received. Finally, the argument falsely assumes that a debt can convey an equity interest in the life, property, or profits of the debtor, without the debtor having consented to the granting of any such equity interest.

It is admittedly possible to accrue a debt without having first consented thereto: such a debt automatically accrues when the debtor causes harm to the life, liberty or property of someone else without valid cause (the only valid cause that comes to mind would be acting in justified self defense).  But other than this one exception (infringing on someone else's rights without his or her consent), debts cannot be justly created without the consent of the debtor.

Therefore, you don't owe anyone anything for those things that someone else voluntarily chooses to do without your consent to pay for them.  Conversely, you have no right to coerce payment from others who have not consented to pay you for the value of the work you voluntarily choose to do that happens to benefit them. 

Even more ludicrous is the idea that you owe anyone anything in exchange for the collateral benefits you may receive as a consequence of actions performed by others.  If I choose to build a dam for the twin purposes of generating electricity and controlling floods, solely because the dam benefits me (I make money selling the electricity, and my home is made safer against the threat of flooding), then why should the fact that your home also is made safer against the threat of flooding entitle me to send you an invoice for any part of the cost of building the dam?  I would have built the dam whether or not you benefited from it, and whether or not you agreed to pay anything for the privilege of benefiting from the dam.

If you benefit from what someone else has voluntarily done, and have not agreed to provide compensation, then you have no more obligation to pay than does the receiver of any other gift.  As long as we do not violate the rights of others, each of us may do—or not do—as we please.   If we do not like the fact that what we voluntarily choose to do happens to also benefit others, our only morally-correct remedy is to refrain from doing such things. If you think otherwise, go sweep the street clean and then send an invoice to the city—or to your neighbors—for the hours worked.  Good luck.

Typically, the amount of tax assessed is not reasonably equivalent to the fair market value of the services provided. One important reason that this is true is because the amount of tax that is assessed is not negotiated between "buyer" and "seller" in a free market.  Both overcharging and underpaying for goods or services makes one party a thief and the other party the victim of a crime.

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The debt you owe to a lienholder does not entitle the lienholder to an equity interest in your life, in your property, and/or in the fruits of your labor.  If you think otherwise, try billing (or even suing) your employer for a percentage of profits in lieu of salary, without his prior agreement.  Good luck.

3. The "social contract" argument: A society has the right to dictate to all members of (or residents in) the society what each individual must contribute (or "give back") in exchange for being allowed to live in, and/or be a member of, and/or receive benefits and services from, the society.  By agreeing to live in a society, an individual is deemed to have "consented" to this "social contract."

The refutation: This argument is based on the false premise that "society" as a whole has a right to coerce consent to debts as a condition for being "allowed" to be a member of the overall society.  

A society is just a group of people who interact.  It has no more rights or powers than does any one of its members.  Therefore, unless some individual member of a society has the right to coerce other members of the society to agree to conditions in exchange for membership in the society, then it cannot be that the society as a whole has any such right.

It's true that an individual has the right to refuse to interact with any other individual. However, each adult only has the right to make such decisions for himself, not for other adults.  Therefore, even though 67% of the citizens of a particular community do not wish to interact with a particular person, the remaining 33% would still have the right to do so, if that is their wish.

No person, or group of persons, has the right to prevent any two adults from interacting, as long as both adults freely choose to do so. It therefore follows that the only way that an individual can morally be denied permission to be a member of society as a whole, is for all the other members of the society to unanimously (and permanently) refuse to interact with him or her. Therefore, society as a whole has no right to demand that individuals agree to conditions in exchange for being allowed to participate in the society--because society has no right to prevent free association (or interaction) among consenting adults. You have the right to interact socially, economically and politically with anyone who is also willing to interact with you, regardless of how many third parties may object.

In fact, the only way that someone could be expelled from society would be to violate the rights of the one expelled.  Society would have to kill the person, and/or steal his property, and/or forbid him the right to live on his property, and/or interdict his right to contract with others for a place to live and/or to produce income, and/or violate his right to travel.  No one has the right to deny anyone the right to live, to own property, to travel, to engage in commercial transactions with others who are willing, or to do anything whatsoever so long as no else&#8217;s rights are being violated. Therefore, society has no right to do any of these things, and so it therefore has no right to threaten to do them unless individuals agree to be taxed.  Such a proposition would be extortion&#8212;a fancy word for theft.

You have inalienable rights because you are a person, not because you agree to pay taxes.  To make the free exercise of your rights contingent on the payment of taxes converts inalienable human rights into privileges that must be purchased.  That way lies slavery.

Society is an epiphenomenon that emerges from the actions and interactions of the individuals of which it is composed.  Society is thus a creation and manifestation of its members, who are therefore its rightful masters.  To posit instead that society rightfully owns and controls the individuals who are its members wrongfully makes each individual a slave to the group.  Others do not own you just because you interact with them. Neither do you own others because they interact with you.  Therefore, society does not own you because you live in it.

It must also be noted that the so-called "social contract" is not properly a "contract" at all.  At no time are individuals ever told what are the conditions of the "social contract" to which they must agree.  At no time are individuals ever asked to formally agree to the terms of this alleged contract.  I have never agreed to any such contract, and I strongly doubt that anyone who ever reads this essay has ever done so, either.  The alleged "social contract" is therefore nothing more than a fictitious "blank check," drawn on the life, liberty and property of the enslaved population, that those in power can cash in any amount that suits them, at any time&#8212;again and again.

4. The "moral debt to those in need" argument: Those who have more than they need are morally obligated to provide for those who have less--and it is a necessary and proper function of government to make sure that the "haves" contribute their "fair share" to the "have nots."  Therefore, the needs of society for the services and benefits of government outweigh the property rights of individuals.

The refutation: This argument is based on the false premise that the needs of one person constitute a moral debt or lien on the life, property or liberty of someone else. This is a wide-spread, but very dangerous, fallacy. No such principle can be morally justified, because it inevitably leads to logical contradictions that destroy individual life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It is maliciously inimical to the very foundations of freedom.

Obviously, if I give (almost) everything I have to charity (or to taxes), then I become the "needy" person, and can then "rightfully" (sic) demand "help" from others.  Just by having less, and doing less productive work, I can "create a moral obligation" (sic) for others to provide for my needs.  As a result, those of you willing to work become the slaves of those of us willing to leach off the efforts of others.  But the resulting "negative feedback loop" must eventually lead to social, moral and economic decay.

To make each individual responsible for meeting the needs of others would have the following consequences:

<![if !supportLists]>a)     <![endif]>The individual would become a slave to all those with greater need,

<![if !supportLists]>b)     <![endif]>The principle of "moral risk" would result in many people failing to act responsibly with respect to their own welfare and best interests, and

<![if !supportLists]>c)     <![endif]>The "haves" would use the fact that they are coerced into supporting the "have nots" to impose laws and regulations restricting everyone's freedom&#8212;on the grounds that social welfare paid for by coercive tax collection gives the taxpayers a legitimate stake in preventing citizens from making poor life choices.

Down this path lies tyranny.

Fundamentally, neither my needs, nor someone else's needs, justify coerced taking from others. Just because I need a heart transplant does not justify my taking your heart without permission. Just because my neighbor needs food to eat does not justify either of us taking from you the food you need to feed your family. Just because I and my family need a place a live does not justify my evicting you and your family from your apartment. Need is not a valid or workable basis by which to assign ownership of property. You are not a slave to my needs, nor am I a slave to yours.

The principle that your life, liberty and property belong only to you, and that you have no obligation to give them to others, and cannot rightfully be coerced into doing so, is the foundation of freedom.  Any society that violates this principle makes slaves out of its members.

You should not be responsible for the consequences of my actions and decisions, and I should not be responsible for the consequences of yours. Each person must be fully and solely responsible for the consequences of the way he/she lives his/her life.   

If you wish to feel guilty because you are able and willing to earn a living, that's your affair. If you wish to donate some or all of what you have to others, that's your affair. Nothing prevents you from giving as much as you like to the charities of your choice. But you have no right to select the charities that others must contribute to, nor to specify the amount or percentage of their charitable giving. If you did, then they would have the same right with respect to you, and you might not like their choices!

No one has the right to be "generous" (sic) with other people's money without their permission. That's not generosity--it's theft.

Working to support yourself and your family is not immoral. Expecting to receive the full benefit of the work you do is not immoral. Expecting others not to steal from you is not immoral. Your hard work helps both yourself, your family, your community, your country and the world at large.  You owe no one any debt merely for having worked to accumulate property, nor for having done productive work.

Conclusion

The fact that your neighbors have voted in a law that says you owe taxes does not mean that you do, because others have no right to take your property without your consent. 

The fact that you benefit from the operation of government does not mean you owe taxes, because no moral debt can be created without either your consent or your misbehavior. 

The fact that you are allowed to operate as a member of society does not mean that you can be construed to have agreed to pay taxes in exchange, because a) you have not in fact agreed to any such contract, b) you have the right to interact (and do business with) anyone else who is willing, and c) no one has the right to violate your rights, or make the enjoyment of your rights contingent on the payment of a fee.

The fact that there are those whose needs are greater or more dire than yours does not mean you owe any taxes, because you are no one&#8217;s slave, no matter how needy they may be.


TOPICS: Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: morality; taxation
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To: Roscoe
If you voluntarily remain in America, you are within its jurisdiction and are subject to its laws.

My thesis goes below the level of laws and Constitutions. My attack is pointed at the roots of of the system. From whence comes the right of the US to dictate laws to me? From whence comes the right of the Constitution to grant any power to Congress? From whence comes the right of the voters in 1789 to grant power to the Constitution?

No one has any right to freely dictate the behavior of anyone else. Each person has the right to require that all other persons respect his rights. That's the only right anyone has to control other people. That goes for me, for you, for the voters in 1789, and hence for Congress and the US government. You can require me to respect the rights of others. To do more than that is to infringe my inalienable right to liberty.

81 posted on 04/17/2002 10:47:15 AM PDT by sourcery
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To: TopQuark
I have no clue where you got the arguments for taxation that you proceed to dismantle: most certainly, you have omitted the economic ones given in most economic texts. And the arguments that you do impute to the proponents are misrepresented.

It may be that you don't like the way I expressed the pro-tax arguments, but I assure you they are not my invention. They are the actual arguments I have encountered, seriously put forth by others. If you think you can do better, then by all means, lets hear it.

I ommitted the economic arguments because they have no bearing. I don't give a hoot what the optimal tax policy may be according to economic theory. The issue is not one of economics, but of morality. If you can't prove your optimal economic policy is moral, and that you have a morally justified right to implement it, then all the economic justification in the world won't save you from rightfully being accused of being morally corrupt, if you go ahead and implement the policy anyway.

Put up or shut up.

82 posted on 04/17/2002 10:54:31 AM PDT by sourcery
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To: sourcery
From whence comes the right of the US to dictate laws to me? From whence comes the right of the Constitution to grant any power to Congress? From whence comes the right of the voters in 1789 to grant power to the Constitution?

"Whosoever, therefore, out of a state of Nature unite into a community, must be understood to give up all the power necessary to the ends for which they unite into society to the majority of the community, unless they expressly agreed in any number greater than the majority. And this is done by barely agreeing to unite into one political society, which is all the compact that is, or needs be, between the individuals that enter into or make up a commonwealth. And thus, that which begins and actually constitutes any political society is nothing but the consent of any number of freemen capable of majority, to unite and incorporate into such a society. And this is that, and that only, which did or could give beginning to any lawful government in the world." -- John Locke

83 posted on 04/17/2002 11:00:54 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: Roscoe
Locke's argument is explicitly refuted by section 1 of my thesis. For a more complete and formal refutation, see Bastiat's The Law.
84 posted on 04/17/2002 11:53:00 AM PDT by sourcery
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To: ancient_geezer
We disagree. I would like to respond in detail after I get home from work this evening. Till then...
85 posted on 04/17/2002 11:55:53 AM PDT by sourcery
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To: sourcery
You aren't under any obligation to remain within our society. If you won't accept the obligations our laws impose, then you aren't entitled to their benefits.

TANSTAAFL

86 posted on 04/17/2002 11:59:50 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: sourcery
I didn't figure that you would agree nor should you figure, I would try to defend the strawdogs you threw up as arguments knocked down in your opening essay?

What good is a debate, rehashing old territory :O)

I submit that the characterisation of the Constitution as some kind of contract, or taxation as some kind of payment for contracted debt for service to the individual to be totally invalid. Such arguments miss the central issue of what the Constitution or any document perporting to create a government is. As you have shown, they are wide of the real mark. It behooves us to investigate the real nature of such nation forming documents which take the form of ratified declarations rather than contractual agreements.

87 posted on 04/17/2002 12:21:00 PM PDT by ancient_geezer
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To: philetus
Lovely--introducing class warfare into the argument? What makes you think a dollar is worth any less to the poster than to you? That's called an "interpersonal utility comparison," and it's a bogus argument.

What are some things that paying $50k in taxes could keep you from doing? Oh, tithing, starting a new business and thus creating jobs, building a new house, buying cars, large endowments to charity...pretty much anything that $50k will buy.

88 posted on 04/17/2002 12:50:55 PM PDT by dinodino
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To: Torie
Oh yes. Torie probably pays more in taxes than you make. That is just a guess.

Moderate conservative? Yeah right. With your understanding of economics, I rather doubt that you earned enough money to pay $300K in taxes last year, but that too is just a guess.

Just spread the cheeks of Big Government and suck a little harder, Torie. Feed that useless, little liberal mind of yours with all the goodies Big Government can push your way.

89 posted on 04/17/2002 8:39:38 PM PDT by Agamemnon
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To: Roscoe
If you won't accept the obligations our laws impose, then you aren't entitled to their benefits.

Do you think its possible for there to be an unjust or illegitimate law?

90 posted on 04/17/2002 8:58:42 PM PDT by timm22
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Comment #91 Removed by Moderator

To: sourcery
IF YOU WANT THIS MAN – AND MEN LIKE HIM – TO REMAIN IN CONTROL OF YOUR ECONOMIC AND PERSONAL DESTINY, CONTINUE TO TOLERATE THE CURRENT MARXIST INCOME TAX SYSTEM.

ONE MORE TIME:

IT’S ABOUT P O W E R AND C O N T R O L!!

SIGN THE PETITION AT HTTP://WWW.VOTR.ORG. Then find out how you can do more to end American’s peculiar SPRING MADNESS.


92 posted on 04/17/2002 9:04:54 PM PDT by Dick Bachert
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Comment #93 Removed by Moderator

To: sourcery
The trick I used a long time ago was to convince myself that my salary would be that much less if there were no income taxes. No one has been able to disprove this theory to me, probably because I'm sure it allows me to avoid lots of helpless aggravation. :)
94 posted on 04/17/2002 9:30:31 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: apochromat
Ha!

Actually, your salary would be far higher. But then you'd have to pay "government insurance" so that you could afford to pay fees for any government services you might need. Or else you'd have to pay the fees out of pocket. You'd probably pay some fees out of pocket, and others using insurance (with some deductible out of pocket, of course). But the net would still leave you with considerably more money left over.

Many more of us would have money left over at the end of the month, instead of month left over at the end of the money.

95 posted on 04/17/2002 9:50:41 PM PDT by sourcery
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To: ancient_geezer
[sourcery:]By what right did a supermajority of citizens in 1789 give themselves the power to tax everyone who might ever be under the power of the US Government?

By the fact that the trust they created was out of their own rights, properties, and wealth. The same as any parent may create at trust out of what that which they own.

So, if I create a trust out of my own property, that gives me the right to tax you? I disagree. But if you think otherwise, the tax bill for this year that you owe to the trust I've set up is $50,000, payable immediately.

They had the right to obligate themselves to the provisions of the trust, which they did. They had the right to pass that trust on to their Posterity, and to make whatever provisions for those who voluntarily applied for and accepted membership (i.e. naturalization).

Yes, they would have the right to pass title to whatever property they owned to any trust of their choice. But I ask again, what about those citizens in 1789 who voted no? They did not consent to have all their property given to the trust to which you refer. Worse, they didn't consent to relinquish their rights. And one's parents or ancestors have no right to relinquish in advance the adult rights of their children and descendants. It is not moral to sell one's children into slavery.

Also, I don't see any documentation from 1789 (or any time, for that matter) that actually sets up a trust such as you describe. The documentation shows that, instead, moral and legal title to all property remained with the original owners, who passed it on in fee simple to their heirs. There were no restrictions in the wills that stipulated that the heirs had to submit to the rules you allege, in order to take title. This trust appears to be a fiction you have concocted in order to justify the morality of taxation.

I think the Founders would be shocked to discover, that their Constitution, whose purpose was to form a government for the purpose of protecting and defending the rights of the people (including the rights to Life, Libery and Property,) was in fact nothing more than a stealth taking of all property from all private individuals, with the effect that the government would be the de facto owner.

The conditions of membership in that trust include the financial support of it.

One is not forced to remain within the jurisdiction of that trust, one if free to unitlaterally renounce their beneficiary status (citizenship) and depart.

It's true that a club can set whatever conditions for membership that it wants, so long as there is nothing about those conditions that would be intrinsically wrong morally. This follows from the right to Liberty, which is the right to do whatever is not morally wrong.

Justification of the right to Liberty: if an action is not morally wrong, it logically follows you have the moral right to do it. To deny this right is to deny your right to to do anything, including any denial of the right to Liberty [based on the definitions of 'right,' 'morally right' and 'morally wrong'].

Of course, a person has to agree to be a member of the club. And the club has to agree to accept the person as a member. A person is free to terminate his membership in a club [by the right to Liberty], and a club is free to revoke any person's membership [also by the right to Liberty]. That's all clear, and so far we apparently fully agree on the issue of club membership principles.

But suppose that you are a member of a local chess club, but have now become unhappy with the yearly dues they charge for membership. So you decide to cancel your membership. But suppose the club responds to this by a) claiming that you had to pay your membership dues for the next ten years, as though you were still a member (even though you won't have any of the privileges of membership), and b) sending armed men to your home and evicting you from your community, on the grounds that only members of the chess club can live in the community?

By what right does the club do either of these things? The latter is especially unfathomable (assuming you own your home, and the club does not). How can the club's actions be morally justified?

My problem with the US tax situation is precisely analagous to the problem you would have with the chess club in the example. I would have no problem cancelling my membership, except for the friendly members of the local organized crime gang [US Marshalls] who would show up and escort me off my own property, and off to some other continent (probably)--at gunpoint.

I have an inalienable right to Liberty. I have an inalienable right to Free Association with other people. I have an inalienable right to acquire and hold property, as long as I acquire it without doing anything that is morally wrong.

The purpose of property is to finally and universally decide whose will should prevail regarding the use of land, or of an object, whenever there is a conflict of wills regarding that issue among two or more persons. To say that I own my land, is to say that my will is sovereign there, as long as I do nothing with or on my property that is morally wrong (i.e., violates someone else's rights.) The owner of land has the Liberty right to decide who or what may be located there, and his will morally supercedes that of all others regarding the use and disposition of his own property. No one has any moral claim to use land owned by someone else, nor to dictate to the owner when the owner may occupy the land. This is fundamental to the purpose and social function of individual ownership of property.

Therefore, the US has no moral right to remove me from my own land, just because I decide to renounce my membership in the club. So my apparent continued "acceptance" of the club's rules is invalid, because it is coerced by the threat of having my inalienable right to Liberty, Free Association and Property violated (in other words, by extortion).

[sourcery:]I have no right to tax whomever I choose, so I cannot grant this right to others.

You have the right to obligate yourself to the financial support of any instution or person you wish. You have the right to create a trust and expect that its provisions will be honored by those who are beneficiaries under that trust.

True, as far as it goes. This is all justified by the right to Liberty. But it is also limited by that very same right to only those actions that are not morally wrong.

You may not force any individual to remain under the trust, but then the Constitution does not demand that either.

The Constution also neither demands, nor authorizes, the coerced deportation of those who fail to agree to its terms. And even were that not so, it would still be morally wrong.

Note that the argument I am making here is simply a more concrete exposition of what I said in section three of the essay. I don't see any fundamental difference between what you claim and the "social contract" argument I refuted in section 3. Whether it's a "social contract," a "trust," or a "club," the refutation is the same: it is not moral to coerce me to agree to acceptance of a "social contract," or conformance to the provisions of a trust, or membership in a club, as a condition for being allowed to exercise my rights to Liberty, Free Association and Property.

[sourcery:]I assert they had not the power to grant this right to Congress, because they didn't have any such right themselves.

Your assertion misses the point, They had the right to create a trust obligating themselves, and selecting from themselves those representatives(a Congress) to maintain and exercise the provisions of that trust in their behalf. They had the right to pass that trust to suceeding genertions.

They certainly had the Liberty right to create a trust. They didn't, though. But even if they had, they still would have no right to do what is morally wrong--such as violating the rights to Liberty, Free Association and Property of those who don't care to be beneficiaries of such a trust (or members of the club, which is a more accurate analogy of what actually pertains).

The only right they did not have, is a right to force anyone to remain beneficiaries. Thus the each citizen retains the right to renounce that citizenship and depart.

The only right they didn't have, was to violate the rights of others.

I submit that the characterisation of the Constitution as some kind of contract, or taxation as some kind of payment for contracted debt for service to the individual to be totally invalid. Such arguments miss the central issue of what the Constitution or any document perporting to create a government is. As you have shown, they are wide of the real mark. It behooves us to investigate the real nature of such nation forming documents which take the form of ratified declarations rather than contractual agreements.

I essentially agree with this, except: I see the Constitution as the deed of title whereby those who voted in favor in 1789 granted certain authority to a designated agent for certain specified purposes. Of course, I also claim that only those who voluntarily (without extortion) have so voted (or otherwise committed themselves), have relinquished any rights, or title to any property.

96 posted on 04/18/2002 12:03:08 AM PDT by sourcery
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To: Roscoe
You aren't under any obligation to remain within our society.

Don't confuse society with government or nation. They're not the same thing--that's why we have different words for them.

Society is owned by no one. Each member of society is free to interact with any other member who is also willing. This is the inalienable right to Free Association.

What you meant to say is that I am not obligated to remain a citizen of the country. That's true. Unfortunately, I am being wronfully extorted into remaining a citizen, in spite of the fact that I would immediately become a non-citizen were that extortion not present.

If you won't accept the obligations our laws impose, then you aren't entitled to their benefits.

Also true. But I am not interested in the benefits of US law, since the net effect thereof is detrimental to me personally, and to society as a whole. All I require is that my rights be respected--which all persons are morally required to do, regardless of which country I may have citizenship in.

97 posted on 04/18/2002 12:14:28 AM PDT by sourcery
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To: sourcery
Don't confuse society with government or nation.

Our society created our government.

You aren't under any obligation to remain within our society. If you won't accept the obligations our laws impose, then you aren't entitled to their benefits.

98 posted on 04/18/2002 12:19:23 AM PDT by Roscoe
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To: sourcery
But then you'd have to pay "government insurance" so that you could afford to pay fees for any government services you might need. Or else you'd have to pay the fees out of pocket.

I know that your argument is based on morality, and not economics, but I'd like to know if you think it is possible to overcome the "free-rider" problem of voluntarily funded government services.

99 posted on 04/18/2002 12:28:17 AM PDT by timm22
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To: Roscoe

"Allow me to be irresponsible, and I'll allow you all to pay for the consequences of my irresponsibility." -the old, tired, discredited liberal ideal

100 posted on 04/18/2002 12:30:39 AM PDT by Cultural Jihad
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