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Pope set to bring back Latin Mass that divided the Church
The Times Online ^ | October 11, 2006 | Ruth Gledhill

Posted on 10/10/2006 5:35:42 PM PDT by Petrosius

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To: Wonder Warthog

So you are taking a stand against Dom Gueranger and Pope Pius XII?


81 posted on 10/11/2006 6:55:40 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world." - Pope Blessed Pius IX)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Latin IS special, and most scholars know it.

It remains a parent language -- and a sure 300 point advantage on the SATs, BTW, for precisely that reason.

It remains a universal language for the entire church. I could attend Mass in Mexico, on a Dutch island, a French island, or in Haiti, and hear the same Mass.

Another distinct advantage is that it is of all the languages except Italian the easiest and most beautiful to sing.

82 posted on 10/11/2006 6:56:58 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Wonder Warthog

Revision: 300 is inaccurate. It's probably more like 100-150 points on the verbal section (I checked).


83 posted on 10/11/2006 7:00:12 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Pyro7480
"So you are taking a stand against Dom Gueranger and Pope PiusXII?"

Yes. The notion that a Pope can bind the church to a specific liturgical device for all history is simply ridiculous. The language of liturgical celebration is NOT a "matter of faith and morals", and can be changed at any time (as it WAS changed MANY times). In the early church ALL masses were "in the vernacular". Why not stick to REAL historic practice instead of the phoney one of "all Latin, all the time"??

84 posted on 10/11/2006 7:02:11 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Wonder Warthog

The longer historical practice in the Western/Latin Church IS Latin. There were the changes you mentioned, but for most of history, Latin was the language, and the drastic change in the last century was a revolution, not a "restoration."


85 posted on 10/11/2006 7:05:12 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world." - Pope Blessed Pius IX)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Latin is the key to the vocabulary and structure of the Romance languages and to the structure of all the Teutonic languages, as well as to the technical vocabulary of all the sciences and to the literature of the entire Mediterranean civilization, together with all its historical documents.

-- Dorothy Sayers, The National Review

86 posted on 10/11/2006 7:06:44 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: AnAmericanMother
"Latin IS special, and most scholars know it."

Sorry, but it is NOT. It's just another language.

"It remains a parent language -- and a sure 300 point advantage on the SATs, BTW, for precisely that reason."

Irrelevant.

"It remains a universal language for the entire church. I could attend Mass in Mexico, on a Dutch island, a French island, or in Haiti, and hear the same Mass."

Not today, you can't.

"Another distinct advantage is that it is of all the languages except Italian the easiest and most beautiful to sing."

Now you're being completely ridiculous.

87 posted on 10/11/2006 7:06:56 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: press
Here's the complete Latin to English missal for anyone worried about not understanding Latin.

I have a printed copy. They are easily purchased.
88 posted on 10/11/2006 7:08:20 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Ease of singing is not ridiculous, for a singer, nor is it ridiculous for the listeners.

English is difficult to set -- the only composers who have carried that art to a perfection to rival Palestrina and the other Latin composers are the English Renaissance musicians - Byrd, Tallis, Farrant, et al.

Latin chant is easy to sing and easy to learn. We should use more of this great "patrimony of the church."

89 posted on 10/11/2006 7:09:59 AM PDT by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: Pyro7480
"The longer historical practice in the Western/Latin Church IS Latin. There were the changes you mentioned, but for most of history, Latin was the language, and the drastic change in the last century was a revolution, not a "restoration.""

Latin was used for a long time---so what!! I say again--there is NOTHING SPECIAL about Latin. It's just another (dead) language.

90 posted on 10/11/2006 7:10:12 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Now you're being completely ridiculous.

Your utter opposition to Latin is what is ridiculous.

91 posted on 10/11/2006 7:10:43 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world." - Pope Blessed Pius IX)
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To: Wonder Warthog

One of the special qualities about Latin IS the fact that it is "dead."


92 posted on 10/11/2006 7:11:20 AM PDT by Pyro7480 ("Give me an army saying the Rosary and I will conquer the world." - Pope Blessed Pius IX)
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To: Wonder Warthog
I simply don't understand this gigantic fixation on Latin

Mass...in Latin? Why in Latin?

Introduction to the TLM - Fr. Cooper (video)

Why Latin? - Fr. Cooper (video)

93 posted on 10/11/2006 7:12:47 AM PDT by murphE (These are days when the Christian is expected to praise every creed but his own. --G.K. Chesterton)
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To: Pyro7480
"Your utter opposition to Latin is what is ridiculous."

I'm not opposed to a Latin mass--AS AN OPTION. If any parish wants to have a Latin mass as well as a Novus Ordo mass, then more power to them.

But there is NOTHING MAGIC, special, or anything else about Latin. It's a historical language, used for a long time, and now dead.

94 posted on 10/11/2006 7:14:19 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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To: Wonder Warthog

May I add another advantage of Latin, protection against phyletism or religious nationalism that has plagued the Orthodox with their use of the vernacular. The use of Latin is a powerful reminder that we are united in a single universal Church, a union than encompasses both space and time, a union centered on the Church of Rome.


95 posted on 10/11/2006 7:15:28 AM PDT by Petrosius
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To: Wonder Warthog
I simply don't understand this gigantic fixation on Latin. The Church switched to Latin from Greek for the very practical reason that it was the most widely spoken language in the "known world". And it retained the use of Latin because of it's conservative nature and the practical advantages for translation among the church hierarchy. In today's world, the language that fills both of those critera is ENGLISH.

Well then, I guess we can propose a English only Mass.

Latin persists because it is pretty close to the languages spoken in (up to recently) 100% Catholic nations. English was only spoken by a little island way up past France. I frankly thing English changes too quickly to be suitable.

Way back when, Latin was standardized in written and spoken forms. A written standard for any other language was unheard of until the recent epoch. Latin changed little through the middle ages, probably changed the most during recent times, but remains understandable from 200AD to 2007AD.

Sure its another language, thats why the Church allows vernacular Mass.
96 posted on 10/11/2006 7:16:02 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Petronski

Our parish (in LA!!) is already adding chants in, at the 11 o'clock service. It is so beautiful. As a musician who can carry a tune, I figure my part is to lead my little area of the pews.

It is quite beautiful.


97 posted on 10/11/2006 7:21:58 AM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: irishjuggler

Don't forget 'et cetera' and 'ante meridian' and 'post meridian.' And there's always 'ipso facto,' a useful saying if ever there was one.


98 posted on 10/11/2006 7:23:10 AM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: Mo1
I've see Latin Masses on TV and enjoy them .. just don't have a clue of what they are saying

An English Translation of the Missale Romanum

99 posted on 10/11/2006 7:25:11 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: Dominick
"Well then, I guess we can propose a English only Mass."

Given the REAL past history of the early Church, that makes more sense than trying to regress back to "universal Latin".

"Latin persists because it is pretty close to the languages spoken in (up to recently) 100% Catholic nations. English was only spoken by a little island way up past France."

That was then. Now, English is the most widely spoken language on the planet.

"I frankly thing English changes too quickly to be suitable."

A reasonable argument.

"Way back when, Latin was standardized in written and spoken forms. A written standard for any other language was unheard of until the recent epoch. Latin changed little through the middle ages, probably changed the most during recent times, but remains understandable from 200AD to 2007AD."

And that is a good argument for keeping it as the standard language of the heirarchy---NOT the mass.

"Sure its another language, thats why the Church allows vernacular Mass"

And I've got no problem with having BOTH.

100 posted on 10/11/2006 7:26:32 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel-NRA)
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