Our story begins:
Fellowship of the Ring
PROLOGUE – Concerning Hobbits and other matters
We begin our story in the year 1401, according to the Shire reckoning, 59 years after Bilbo returns home from the adventure recounted in The Hobbit. Some history and events concerning hobbits and their habits are told in the Prologue. I think many would agree with my humble opinion that to fully adore our hobbits and their character, you cannot skip The Hobbit.
BOOK 1
Chapter I – A Long-Expected Party
When Mr. Bilbo Baggins of Bag End announced that he would shortly be celebrating his eleventy-first birthday with a party of special magnificence, there was much talk and excitement in Hobbiton.Bilbo was very rich and very peculiar, and had been the wonder of the Shire for sixty years, ever since his remarkable disappearance and unexpected return. The riches he had brought back from his travels had now become a local legend, and it was popularly believed, whatever the old folk might say, that the Hill at Bag End was full of tunnels stuffed with treasure. And if that was not enough for fame, there was also his prolonged vigour to marvel at. Time wore on, but it seemed to have little effect on Mr. Baggins. At ninety he was much the same as at fifty. At ninety-nine they began to call him well-preserved; but unchanged would have been nearer the mark. There were some that shook their heads and thought this was too much of a good thing; it seemed unfair that anyone should possess (apparently) perpetual youth as well as (reputedly) inexhaustible wealth.
“It will have to be paid for,” they said. “It isn’t natural, and trouble will come of it!”…
The first questions was: Who are the hobbits? This is who the Hobbits and the Shire are to me:
It is easy to see pre-World War I England in both the Shire and the Hobbits. Things valued by rural England at the turn of the century are the same things valued by hobbits -- love of land, love of family, love for one another, and love of king and country. (In the Shire, the head of each family represents the king)
The danger England faced in both wars parallels the danger faced by the Shire. The reaction of Tolkien and his boyhood friends to that danger mirrors the reaction of Hobbits when confronted by the same danger. Both the soldier in the trenches of France and the Hobbits face a superior enemy with resolve and courage. They summon up strength they do not know they possess and do what has to be done to defend their home.
But in the first chapter, as we prepare for the party, we see the Hobbits and the Shire without the stormclouds of war on the horizen. What occupies their time are silly things. A birthday party, gossip, strained relations, and greedy relatives.
After 9/11, a columnist wrote that the last decade found America consumed with "petty" things. After 9/11, that changed. Everything was different. New definitions were imposed. (For example: now when I think of heros, I think of firefights and policemen running to their deaths at the WTC. I think of passengers calling home to say I love you before overpowering hi-jackers and driving a plane into the ground)
The Shire doesn't have the jadedness that '90's America had because Tolkien did not know those times. Instead it has the ease of country living. The values and the things that would preoccupy a society before "war and modernization" drove away the innocence and replaced it with cynicism.
In the first chapter, we see the Hobbits untried by danger, terror, fear, and war. When the important things in life was whether you would be invited to the big party or not.
That will change. The crucible of events will break them open and expose what lies at the heart of the race...but that is a future they can't even envision. In Chapter 1... the ring is just a bauble to make you invisible so you can hide from the Sackville-Baggins, Bilbo is 111, Frodo is 33, and Gandalf has come to visit.
21 posted on 2/15/02 8:42 AM Pacific by carton253
What I like is that Tolkien made the Hobbits so human. As Chapter One moves on - there is so much in the Hobbits that we can identify with. We may not hide when the horrid relation comes to the door, but we look at our caller ID and let the machine get it instead.
When reading The Hobbit, I knew the book worked on a much deeper level when not only Thorin died, but Fili and Kili also. I remember saying outloud... "Not Fili and Kili..." And crying... then laughing at myself for crying over dwarves!
Tolkien also has a wicked wit... and not only do his characters say funny things, but the situations they find themselves in are funny. Humor bypasses the head and goes straight to the heart.
At first, I didn't like the idea that Bilbo was going away. I didn't know if I would like this Frodo... but by giving Frodo a colorful supporting cast... causing us to like them and showing us Frodo through their eyes, Tolkien very adroitly weans us from Bilbo to Frodo and before we know it we are off on another adventure. Not with 13 grumpy dwarves, but with 4 Hobbits that we have come to like within the first chapter or two.
44 posted on 2/15/02 9:13 AM Pacific by carton253
Mae Govannen, Fast-I-Chû (HairOfTheDog). Splendid idea for a thread. I thought I'd offer some historical context for the first chapter by showing they way things are in 1401 SE (3001 of the Third Age):
As we know, Bilbo is turning 111 and Frodo will be 33. Aragorn is 70, Boromir is 23, Sam is 18, Merry is 19, Pippin is 11, Gimli is 222, and Legolas's age is unknown.
Sauron made a secret return to Mordor 59 years ago. Gollum hasn't been captured yet, so Sauron still thinks that the ring is at the bottom of the Anduin.
Saruman has had designs on the ring for the last 150 years. He still hides from the rest of the White Council that the knows where the ring was lost, and has been secretely searching for it.
Smeagol, AKA Gollum, first found the ring 538 years ago.
Gondor has been without a king for 1051 years.
47 posted on 2/15/02 9:29 AM Pacific by Romestamo
Notes on Hobbit government, from the Prologue...
…The Shire at this time had hardly any ‘government’. Families for the most part managed their own affairs. Growing food and eating it occupied most of their time…
...There remained, of course, the ancient tradition concerning the high king at Fornost, or Norbury as they called it, away north of the Shire. But there had been no king for nearly a thousand years, and even the ruins of Kings’ Norbury were covered with grass…. For they attributed to the king of old all their essential laws; and usually they kept the laws of free will, because they were The Rules (as they said), both ancient and just.
It is true that the Took family had long been pre-eminent; for the office of Thain had passed to them (from the Oldbucks) some centuries before, and the chief Took had borne that title ever since. The Thain was the master of the Shire-moot, and captain of the Shire-muster and the Hobbitry-in-arms, but as muster and moot were only held in times of emergency, which no longer occurred, the Thainship had ceased to be more than a nominal dignity…
Clearly, Tolkien felt that good people needed little government. There was also a Mayor at Michel Delving, who's only real function at this time was to preside at banquets. And also Shirrifs, who patrolled the border "to see that Outsiders of any kind, great or small, did not make themselves a nuisance" They were usually "more concerned with the straying of beasts than of people". Apparently even people who enjoyed pipeweed. Not to spoil the obvious fun in considering this weed, but Tolkien clearly states that the weed is "a variety probably of Nicotiana " (simple tobacco)
112 posted on 2/15/02 12:58 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Thanks for posting this. I think Hobbits are sort of very idealized Humans. They have all our best qualities and few of our faults; perhaps some of them are gluttons, but not many. They're very interested in their own business and not the world outside. They leave other people alone, and other people leave them alone. Of course, they're being protected from bad things by the Rangers and Gandalf. Still, I think most of us would like to live in the Shire, as long as we could get some cable modems and broadband lines brought in. The Green Dragon Internet Cafe?
116 posted on 2/15/02 1:10 PM Pacific by JenB
I thought I'd kill two birds with one stone by flipping through the Letters.
Concerning Lobelia Sackville-Baggins, in a letter to Rayner Unwin dated 8 December 1955:
...My correspondence is now increased by letters of fury against the critics and the broadcast. One elderly lady - in part the model for 'Lobelia' indeed, though she does not suspect it - would I think certainly have set about Auden (and others) had they been in range of her umbrella...
Concerning Entwives, in a letter to Naomi Mitchison dated 25 April 1954:
I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin... Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have becmoe enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult - unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know.
And from a letter to Fr. Douglas Carter dated 6[?] June 1972:
...It is plain that there would be for Ents no re-union in 'history' - but Ents and their wives being rational creatures would find some 'earthly paradise' until the end of this world...
CHAPTER II
The Shadow of the Past
Excerpts from our second chapter to get us going….
The talk did not die down in nine or even ninety days….…“If only that dratted wizard will leave young Frodo alone, perhaps he’ll settle down and grow some hobbit-sense,” they said. And to all appearance the wizard did leave Frodo alone, and he did settle down, but the growth of hobbit-sense was not very noticeable. Indeed, he at once began to carry on Bilbo’s reputation for oddity…
…He lived alone, as Bilbo had done; but he had a good many friends, especially among the younger hobbits (mostly descendents of the Old Took) who had as children been fond of Bilbo and often in and out of Bag End…. His closest friends were Peregrin Took (usually called Pippin), and Merry Brandybuck (his real name was Meriadoc, but that was seldom remembered). Frodo went tramping all over the Shire with them; but more often he wandered by himself, and to the amazement of sensible folk he was sometimes seen far from home walking in the hills and woods under the starlight. Merry and Pippin suspected that he visited the Elves at times, as Bilbo had done…
…As time went on, people began to notice that Frodo also showed signs of good ‘preservation’: outwardly he retained the appearance of a robust and energetic hobbit just out of his tweens. “Some folk have all the luck,” they said; but it was not until Frodo approached the usually more sober age of fifty that they began to think it queer.
Frodo himself, after the first shock, found that being his own master and the Mr. Baggins of Bag End was rather pleasant. For some years he was quite happy and did not worry much about the future. But half unknown to himself the regret that he had not gone with Bilbo was steadily growing. He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams. He began to say to himself: “Perhaps I shall cross the River myself one day.” To which the other half of his mind always replied: “Not yet”…
OK – Good Morning!!!
180 posted on 2/16/02 9:35 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
A chapter per week was the plan, but Chapter I took less than 24 hours before the guests here began to wander... some chapters may take more time, some less... but these early chapters sort-of continue the same theme, so I think it is OK to continue on. Forgive me for not promising to hold to a schedule...
I am enjoying the detail and time Tolkien gave to developing the hobbit characters and the foreshadowing of the dark times to come before they set out. The film could not reasonably have been expected to do all that... A full 17 years passes between the party and the beginning of the journey... and I think it took Gandalf about two minutes to get our Frodo out the door in the film, although it was hinted that he had traveled far...
More excerpts:
…Frodo began to feel restless, and the old paths seemed to well-trodden. He looked at maps, and wondered what lay beyond their edges…. He took to wandering further afield and more often by himself; and Merry and his other friends watched him anxiously. Often he was seen walking and talking with the strange wayfarers that began at this time to appear in the Shire….…Elves, who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, passing and not returning…
...Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor...
185 posted on 2/16/02 10:14 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Ooooh, Chapter 2. Great! I remember the first time I read LOTR. This chapter got me hooked.
"You have not seen him," Gandalf broke in. [referring to Gollum]At first, I was disappointed that this section was transposed to the Mines of Moria. But after subsequent viewings, it has that kind of gut-wrenching impact, so close to Gandalf's fall and hearing Gollum's footsteps."No, and I don't want to," said Frodo. "I can't understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? No at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death."
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement....snip....And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many--yours not least..."
186 posted on 2/16/02 10:14 AM Pacific by Carolina
Another Freeper (and I apologize, but I can't remember who) pointed out that by putting the story of the Last Alliance in the movie's prologue, the movie changed the tone of the book. In the book, the innocent cheeriness of the first chapter is undiluted by any knowledge of the Shadow until the second, giving us a steady progression from light into the darkness that hangs over the rest of the books. In the movie, on the other hand, we have a "light sandwich," with only a brief enjoyment of the ideal life of the Shire placed between the prologue and Gandalf's search for answers.
That's not a criticism of the movie, really, just an observation of the difference a small change in format can make to the tone.
Yours in Truth,
188 posted on 2/16/02 10:20 AM Pacific by Buggman
A lot of the background from Chapter 2 was moved around to other parts of the story for the film, like all of the history at the beginning of the film... we did not learn about any of that until Chapter 2 or Rivendell. My review posted here from the first time I saw the film complained a bit that the dark forces were brought out so early and vividly in the film. I loved most of all the innocence at the beginning of this story, and the foreshadowing that begins in hints and whispers. Tolkien had a gift for that, but Jackson's way works too... most people would not have been satisfied, I guess to see Frodo and Gandalf sit around that table for two hours and spell it out slowly... though some of us would have.
189 posted on 2/16/02 10:26 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
That is interesting--they took the story that Gandalf related in Chapter 2 and placed in the very beginning with Galadriel telling the story instead. It does make a huge difference, because in the book the shadow and threat of what is to come creeps slowly onto the idyllic scene. The reader slowly becomes aware of the gravity of the threat, rather than having it presented full-force right at the start. Something that a book can do where a movie can't necessarily present as successfully...
There was an awful lot of care and thought put into how a story is told in a movie setting as opposed to on the printed page. I'm amazed at how well they balanced their faithfulness to the story with the necessity of adapting it to an entirely different medium.
-penny
193 posted on 2/16/02 10:34 AM Pacific by Penny1
I think the most important thing in Chapter 2 is the establishment of Sam's character before the journey began. Frodo may be the ringbearer, but Sam is just as much the protagonist. The way that the journey changes him is one of the best aspects of the book.
In this chapter, Sam let's Sandyman walk all over him at the Green Dragon and has such little understanding of Gandalf as to believe Gandalf would turn him into "something unnatural." And, last but not least, his feelings about embarking on this important journey can be summed up as "Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!"
195 posted on 2/16/02 10:38 AM Pacific by Romestamo
After our little chat on the "other thread" about how Sam reminds us sometimes of a faithful golden retriever, I cracked up totally at this line:
[Gandalf speaking to Samwise]"You shall go away with Mr. Frodo!" "Me sir!" cried Sam, springing up like a dog invited for a walk. "Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!" he shouted, and then burst into tears.
Sam is such a dear....
-penny
196 posted on 2/16/02 10:39 AM Pacific by Penny1
I think it is interesting that Merry, rather than Sam, is given the first emphasis in Frodo's circle of friends... Merry accompanying him on his long walks, Sam defending him from the Green Dragon, but introduced as an employee, rather than a close friend. I wonder sometimes if Tolkien’s view of the roles the characters would eventually play was still developing in his own mind as he wrote.
199 posted on 2/16/02 10:48 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I noticed that too--both Merry and Pippin were singled out as being Frodo's closest friends while Sam is never mentioned in such terms. And you're right, Merry is the one who is the most involved in Frodo's life. Yet we are given many more glimpses of Sam than we are of M&P at this point--he is more fully developed as a character, as if we're being well set up for him to be the one whose life is most closely bound to Frodo's.
Perhaps the idea is that while Merry and Pippin became Frodo's friends during the peaceful years before the mission begins, Frodo's and Sam's friendship is forged in the trials and hardships of the mission itself. And it is their friendship that makes the biggest impact on the story.
There is also a great deal of "class consciousness" that underpins the story--Merry and Pippin are seen as Frodo's equals in class, while Sam is on a lower rung of society...at the beginning of the story...
-penny
200 posted on 2/16/02 11:01 AM Pacific by Penny1
For some reason, this excerpt really got me thinking:
Frodo says, "I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again."
Was this part of the story written while Tolkien's son was away from home? I was remembering reading somewhere that some of the book was written while his son was away, and it doesn't take much to substitute England for The Shire to get a sense of some of what The Shire represented to Tolkien in real life.... Love of one's country is indeed a powerful thing.
-penny
202 posted on 2/16/02 11:06 AM Pacific by Penny1
According to the Foreword, The Shadow of the Past is one of the oldest parts and was written way before 1939.
203 posted on 2/16/02 11:14 AM Pacific by Overtaxed
Love of one's country is indeed a powerful thing
True, and that love drives many of our main characters doesn't it? - and that in Frodo's case leaving it behind might be the only thing that saves it. "I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them. But I don't feel like that now..." from the same passage you quoted. If he left, perhaps the evil would pass around the Shire and leave with him.
204 posted on 2/16/02 11:16 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I did manage to read the section on The Rings of Power from the Silmarillion last night, and one thing jumped out at me in particular. Gandalf's ring was the Ring of Fire. The name conjured up for me the image of his battle with the balrog in Moria, but that is not at all the emphasis presented in "The Rings of Power." Instead, the Ring of Fire which Gandalf possesses increases his ability to enflame the hearts of others to heroic deeds. Hence his ability to spark in the hobbits their drive and commitment to performing great acts of heroism beyond any that they themselves would beleive possible. I think about how each time one of them steps out, it is Gandalf who is present to spur them on--Frodo and Sam at the beginning, Merry and Pippin later on in the story. All who accept Gandalf's leadership arrive at greater achievements than they believe are even possible, all because of his encouragement and influence.
Just knowing that bit about the Ring of Fire really opened my eyes to Gandalf's role, particularly in how it worked itself out in his relationships with all the characters in the story.
"Take now this Ring," he [Círdan] said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill."
-penny
207 posted on 2/16/02 11:24 AM Pacific by Penny1
Why, do you suppose, the fact that Gandalf bears one of the rings of power was hidden from us, buried in the Silmarillian (and only briefly mentioned one other place). Is this a prize withheld by Tolkien on purpose, one of the hidden layers to be learned only by "varsity" geeks that chose to study further?
209 posted on 2/16/02 11:31 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
The ring Narya is undoubtedly what Gandalf is refering to when he calls himself the wielder of the flame of Anor (Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun). Conversely, the balrog is a servant of the flame of Udûn (Udûn is the name of a region in Mordor, but etymologically means "bad darkness," or something along those lines).
212 posted on 2/16/02 11:40 AM Pacific by Romestamo
Oh, and one other thing. That Círdan gave the ring to Olórin (Gandalf) and not to Curunír (Saruman) is considered the source for the grudge that Saruman has always had against Gandalf.
213 posted on 2/16/02 11:45 AM Pacific by Romestamo
While it may be stating the obvious, I think we should take the time to at least hear this again, lest anyone wonder later if the ring could ever be saved....
"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades... Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him"."Bilbo knew no more than he told you, I am sure," said Gandalf. "He would certainly never have passed on to you anything that he thought would be a danger, even though I promised to look after you. He thought the ring was very beautiful, and very useful at need; and if anything was wrong or queer, it was himself..."
The ring cannot be possessed by even the pure of purpose for long without the evil turning him, and Bilbo is absolved from guilt for the "dirty trick" inflicted on poor Frodo.
214 posted on 2/16/02 11:52 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Spoilers from Return of The King included below:
I'm not sure, but it's emphasized in that chapter of The Silmarillion that he was not revealed as possessing a ring of power until he left Middle Earth...i.e., when we see him leave with Frodo at the end of Return of The King. I think perhaps it is hidden from us because it is also hidden from the rest of the characters. And as to what the ring actually does, I think that is the case with all of the rings of the elves. Without digging deeper, we don't really find out that much...I think perhaps Tolkien was holding out some things for those who would want to dig deeper.
None of the rings of the elves were mentioned in much detail as to their purpose in The Lord of The Rings, and only Galdriel's Nenya was mentioned or displayed at all until we reach the very end of the tale. But I think Tolkien does that--hides certain things from view, yet having them in mind behind the scenes so to speak. In some ways, I think it is a reward for the reader, it's as if he's saying, "keep reading....there are yet more secrets in store...."
-penny
215 posted on 2/16/02 11:55 AM Pacific by Penny1
Okay, back to Chapter 2.
Here is Gandalf keeping his promise to Bilbo about keeping an eye on Frodo:
Then he paid Frodo a brief visit, and after taking a good look at him he went off again. During the next year or two he had turned up fairly often, coming unexpectedly after dusk, and going off without warning before sunrise. He would not discuss his own business and journeys, and seemed chiefly interested in small news about Frodo's health and doings.Something's afoot. Right before this we see Sam talking about the High Elves leaving, "Sailing, sailing, sailing over the sea."[Nine years later......]
They looked hard at one another.
"All well eh?" said Gandalf. "You look the same as ever, Frodo!"
"So do you," Frodo replied; but secretly he thought that Gandalf looked older and more careworn. He pressed him for news of himself and of the wide world...
I simply don't understand why people think Tolkien's prose is overbearing.
216 posted on 2/16/02 12:02 PM Pacific by Carolina
I think you hit on it... If, after all, Gandalf's role is to inspire the hearts of people to valor, then it should be subtle, a mentoring that leads the hero to his own decision. For the hero to have known that there was a greater power at work could lead the reader to think that Gandalf was driving people through trickery, no more noble than Saruman's voice.
And yet Gandalf says "There are other forces at work besides the will of evil, and that is an encouraging thought" Clearly Gandalf is once again saying mysterious things without explaining all of their meanings, unless we dig deeper.
217 posted on 2/16/02 12:05 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Good point. My opinion has always been that Gandalf looked more careworn because of all the work that went into capturing and interrogating Gollum, as well as general stress from worry that the ring is the One Ring.
As for the departing elves, I have a bit of sympathy for them. Most of them were undoubtedly around when they went through so much trouble to defeat Sauron a first time (and some maybe still from the battles with Morgoth), and the knowledge that he was returning stronger than ever would make me want to up and quit, too.
218 posted on 2/16/02 12:08 PM Pacific by Romestamo
I also thought it was encouraging how Gandalf said that Bilbo would be all right, that the ring would have no serious lasting effect on him. In fact, Bilbo came out of the whole affair much more "whole" than Frodo.
The scene where Frodo and Gandalf talk about destroying the ring, and seeing how difficult it would be, is quite sobering. Particularly, Gandalf saying "I could not 'make' you [destroy it]--except by force, which would break your mind." I found myself thinking that it was likely this was what was being hinted at in the movie when Frodo reacts in such pain at Gimli striking the ring with his axe. Yikes.
The significance of Bilbo "giving" the ring to Frodo is fascinating to me too. I believe this is the only instance up to that point of the history of The Ring of Power of anyone "giving" the One Ring to anyone--always before it was attained through violence or through trickery and through the ring's own choosing. But in Bilbo giving the ring to Frodo, the ring's power to choose its bearer is further broken. How crucial it was that Bilbo have the strength of will to give it up!
-penny
219 posted on 2/16/02 12:14 PM Pacific by Penny1
As for the departing elves, I have a bit of sympathy for them. Most of them were undoubtedly around when they went through so much trouble to defeat Sauron a first time (and some maybe still from the battles with Morgoth), and the knowledge that he was returning stronger than ever would make me want to up and quit, too.
Some of the more obscure writings of Tokien give more profound reasons for the Elves bailing out of Middle Earth.
Over millennia the fire of their “souls,” which are inherently free of evil, begin to cause a “fading” of their bodies, which are inevitably tainted with the evil introduced into all matter by Melkor, the master of Sauron. All of Middle Earth was, in a sense, the “Ring” of Melkor. Even after his destruction the matter of Middle Earth did not fit very well with the souls of the Elves, which led to a growing disquiet and desire to escape to Aman, the only place they could live at peace.
222 posted on 2/16/02 12:27 PM Pacific by Restorer
The ring Narya is undoubtedly what Gandalf is refering to when he calls himself the wielder of the flame of Anor (Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun).
There may be a deeper meaning. In some of Tolkien’s more obscure (later) works, the sun is a female Maiar, Anor, who is given by Varda a light (secret fire?) direct from Iluvatar that is uncontaminated by Melkor’s evil. Melkor angrily attacks and rapes Anor, who flees. Perhaps the “secret fire of Anor” is the source of the power of all the Istari, who are emissaries of the Valar to assist those who are fighting Sauron.
This meaning would take the “secret fire” back to the original Music of the Ainur, a great many millennia before the Rings were made. This would tie in with the light that is seen “leaking” from around Gandalf, especially after he returns as the White. Perhaps while dead in Aman, he is given greater access to or power over the Fire.
224 posted on 2/16/02 12:39 PM Pacific by Restorer
Good point. Gandalf, as a Maiar, is not OF Arda (the World) in the same sense that Elves and Men are. He is of an order of beings that existed before Arda and in a real sense actually made Arda. Thus the death of a Maiar can be expected to be handled differently than Elves, who go to the Halls of Mandos till they are reincarnated, or Men, who go there briefly before leaving the Circles of the World.
Your theory would be of a piece with the power, which Tolkien constantly emphasizes, of Iluvatar to introduce wild cards (miracles, if you will) outside of the normal course of event. The Destruction of Numenor and removal of Aman from Earth near the end of the Second Age is the classic example of this.
226 posted on 2/16/02 1:13 PM Pacific by Restorer
One of my favorite aspects that first arises in this chapter is the power language and words.
"I cannot read the fiery letters," said Frodo in a quavering voice."No," said Gandalf, "but I can. The letters are Elvish, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Mordor, which I will not utter here."
Merely speaking of evil will empower it, and conversely, speaking of good will drive evil away. For example, there is Frodo's use of "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" on Weathertop.
227 posted on 2/16/02 3:14 PM Pacific by ecurbh
Thank you for this thread. Tolkein's the greatest writer of the 20th Century in my book, and that just might be too light a praise. In Jr. HS and before, I read all of Tolkein's works over and over again and I've recently rediscovered the books with the release of the first movie. I haven't yet had time to read the thread in its entirety and I've only just discovered it, but I'd love to participate as I have time.
Amazing all the details one remembers after nearly two decades and it's been a delight rediscovering forgotten details (having now re-read all of the Lord of the Rings). I'll read Silmarillian again when time permits. I lost all interest in Fantasy before High School since none of the other writers ever created anything approaching Tolkein, notwithstanding their efforts to. Alas that Tolkein, being as we of the lesser, and later Men, did not have the longevity of the first Numenorians, or better, of the Eldar.
Warmest regards and thanks again.
228 posted on 2/16/02 3:45 PM Pacific by fire and forget
It is an excerpt from the complete poem about the rings of power:
Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
236 posted on 2/16/02 5:18 PM Pacific by ecurbh
Thankfully, we aren't subjected to much of this tongue in the Lord of the Rings.
Elrond certainly was freaked out:
"Never before has any voice dared to utter words of that tongue in Imladris, Gandalf the Grey."But Gandalf was unapologetic.
It's like he was saying, "Better get used to it, 'cuz if that dude Sauron wins, you're gonna hear it in every corner."
238 posted on 2/16/02 5:26 PM Pacific by Carolina
I can't even read it and smile, let alone try to speak it... It does reek evil doesn't it? And the elvish language is so beautiful. Tolkien was a true poet to capture the soul of language to the point where he could create terror or beauty from the sound of the language itself, without any meaning being necessary to understand the message. And of course, he was thorough enough, that if you wanted to, you could dig deeper and understand it as well.
239 posted on 2/16/02 5:28 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I pointed out to someone earlier that Sindarin, the language of the Grey-Elves, had roughly the phonological characteristics of British-Welsh, because it fit their epic history, which reads like Old-English legend.
Perhaps more interesting is Quenya, the high Elven tongue. Because its place in Middle-Earth is that of the language of knowledge and history, it is in someways very similar to Latin, such as in syntactically. It gains it truly beautiful, flowing style from a special blend of Finnish, Latin, and Greek.
240 posted on 2/16/02 5:35 PM Pacific by Romestamo
Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun
This is off the subject, but I have to ask something. Sir SuziQ and I had talked about building a new house and giving it a name. Since we wanted it to be on a hill and to incorporate passive solar, we thought Sunny Hill would be nice. When we went to see the movie, we began to wonder what that would translate into in 'Elvish'. I looked on a website and found that 'Amon' was hill and 'Nar' was sun, but that was Quenyan. Where did you find 'Anor'? "Amon Anor" does sound nice!
Sheesh! Are we Tolkien geeks or what!!?
245 posted on 2/16/02 5:56 PM Pacific by SuziQ
It does make you wonder, doesn't it?
I find myself wondering if perhaps Gandalf expected or hoped that Frodo would eventually mature and grow in his ability to resist the pull of the ring. In many ways, he does--for example, (MORE SPOILERS) he manages to keep from wearing the ring when the Nazgûl come close to him just outside Minus Morgul.
Also, I wonder if Gandalf never believed that Frodo and Sam would be made to go to Mordor all alone without himself or others of the Fellowship to help him.
I suppose it's all wrapped up in his statement, "Even the very wise cannot see all ends...."
I read a great review of the movie that summed up the idea of the story that the entire task seems entirely hopeless...and grows more and more hopeless as the story progresses. Until at the last, success of ANY kind seems utterly impossible....and yet...success is achieved. It's all about doing the right thing and having faith that it will somehow be enough no matter how impossible it looks.
-penny
250 posted on 2/16/02 6:16 PM Pacific by Penny1
I think it is interesting that Merry, rather than Sam, is given the first emphasis in Frodo's circle of friends...
Frodo doesn't hang out with Sam the way he does with Merry and Pippin. I think that although Frodo is fond of Sam, they are not all that close. After all, you don't hear the Gamgee's being mentioned at all during the Party (they weren't part of the Gross) so I believe they "running" things. Frodo knows how Sam likes hearing about Elves, but he never takes him along on his wanderings to meet any of them.
At the end of Chapter 2 it seems that Frodo hasn't realized how devoted Sam is:
"He won't hurt you," said Frodo, hardly able to keep from laughing, although he was himself startled and rather puzzled.
254 posted on 2/16/02 6:36 PM Pacific by Overtaxed
Thanks, HOTDog, for adding my name to the Fellowship of the Ping; I'll do my best not to slow the group down on the long journey ahead.
Prompted by the popularity of the LOTR movie in the US (I'm in Japan), I just recently picked up the series for the first time in twenty years, and I'm slightly past the halfway point of The Two Towers now. The movie hasn't arrived here yet; it's scheduled to open in theaters on 2 March, though there will be a late night/early morning preview showing this coming Saturday. Since the movie will not end until after train and subway service stop, it'll be an all-night affair...I guess we'll know then who the real Tolkien fans are.
Despite Tolkien's fame in the English-speaking world, none of my Japanese friends had even heard of LOTR prior to seeing the TV ads for the movie, though the Lord of the Rings series, The Hobbit, and The Silmarillion have been available in Japanese for some years now, and such texts as The Atlas of Middle Earth can be found alongside them in bookstores. Most bookstores of any decent size have the entire LOTR series displayed prominently (right next to the Harry Potter books), and Tolkien is likely to gain a considerable number of new fans on this side of the Pacific once the movie arrives.
I actually went out and bought the Japanese-language versions of The Hobbit and the first two volumes of the paperback LOTR today -- hey, if you think three volumes of Tolkien in English is daunting, try nine volumes (albeit not very thick ones) in translation! -- and, if this discussion group doesn't tear through chapters like Ents through stone, I might try to keep up. For those most unquenchably curious hobbits out there, the first volume of LOTR is entitled Tabi no Nakama in Japanese, which translates as "Traveling Companions."
Has anyone else out there read LOTR in translation? I think it might be interesting to discuss some of the differences between the original English version and translated versions -- including variations in literary style, approaches taken to convey dialects, the care taken to maintain the rhyme and rhythm of the poetry/songs, etc. Having skimmed through the Japanese books I bought today, it struck me just how much of Tolkien's appeal lies in his use of language and not simply in the ripping good yarns he tells.
279 posted on 2/17/02 2:12 AM Pacific by The_Expatriate
Well, looks like you guys have been having fun! I've spent my time away thinking about what exactly I should talk about, and figuring out what should be discussed in more depth later, so here goes.
At the end of the First Age in Middle-Earth, the host of the Valar (demigods, basically) overthrew Morgoth, who was a very powerful evil spirit. Morgoth had been ruling Middle-Earth and warring with the Elves and some Men for a very long time. Morgoth basically equals Satan.
Anyway, Morgoth was defeated, and as a reward, the Men who had fought with the Elves were given an island out between Middle-Earth and the Blessed Realms. The island was called Numenor, and sometimes Westernesse, which is how it is referred to in the chapter we are disussing. The men of Numenor were taught many things by the Elves.
Now, Morgoth's chief servant was Sauron. When Morgoth was defeated, he surrendered, but later he fled and hid himself. Slowly he began to gather power to himself, but nobody knew about it. Then he came to the Elves of Eregion (also called Hollin) and the Rings of Power were made. He had a hand in making most of them, but not the Elven-Rings. Celebrimbor the Elf-Smith did not trust Sauron. (This probably goes way back to the problems Feanor had with Morgoth over the Silmarils; Celebrimbor was Feanor's grandson. I can give you more details on this if you need it.) Anyway, the Elf-rings were hidden from Sauron, and so the One Ring, which Sauron soon forged, had less power over them.
Sauron, as we all know, forged the Ring in Orodruin - Mt. Doom. Part of the reason he settled in Mordor was because of Mt Doom, but he also increased its powers. It's not your average volcano.
While all this is going on in Middle-Earth, over in Numenor the kings are becoming more proud and forgetting their roots. Although the kings are descended from Elros Half-Elven, brother of Elrond and the child of Earendil and Elwing, the laws of Numenor are becoming increasingly hard on elf-friends. Then Ar-Pharazon the Golden comes to the throne. He is the proudest king of all, and he takes his army to Middle-Earth and forces Sauron to swear fealty. Sauron is taken back to Numenor as a captive - but he has the Ring. Ar-Pharazon falls under Sauron's power, and the Numenoreans turn to darkness.
Finally, the Valar destroy Numenor because Ar-Pharazon tries to make war on Aman. Numenor is swallowed by the sea. However, one family, descendants of Elros and still loyal to the Elves, escapes. Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion flee, with nine ships full of people and treasures- seven stars and seven stones and one white tree.
Elendil founds the North-Kingdom of Arnor, and his sons rule together in Gondor. They build the great city of Osgiliath, the watch-city of Minas Isil, and the white city, Minas Anor.
Then comes the Last Alliance. Sauron had escaped the destruction of Numenor, though he was weakened, and now seeing his evil, Men and Elves banded together. The great Elf-King, Gil-Galad, lead his people, and Elendil led the armies of Men, and they fought. Elendil and Gil-Galad defeated Sauron, but they perished doing so. Then Isildur took the Ring from Sauron's hand, as wergild for his dead father and brother.
One thing that you may not realize from the movie is how few people knew that Isildur took the Ring. Although it's not made clear until the Council of Elrod, I think I can talk about it here. In the last duel between Sauron and Elendil and Gil-Galad, there weren't many spectators; just Isildur, Elrond, and Cirdan. (Incidentally Gil-Galad originally had one of the Rings; when he died, it went to Elrond.) So only those three knew the truth of what had happened; and Isildur died two years later, ambushed by Orcs. He did write the famous parchment in Minas Tirith but apparently nobody knew about it.
Is there anything else anyone would like to know about this period?
296 posted on 2/17/02 11:01 AM Pacific by JenB
Incidentally I wanted to say that I'm working on a site to summarize the history, for quick reference or what not. You already know that but I wanted to get the address out there for other people. It's here. I've finished summarizing the First Age, the age of legends, which doesn't much come into LotR, other than a few mentions of the Silmarils and Beren and Luthien - oh, and Earendil, of course. So for people who have yet to read Sil., this is available.
303 posted on 2/17/02 11:32 AM Pacific by JenB
Because, um - well, there were seven 'fathers of the Dwarves' that resulted in seven Dwarf families. So maybe each family got one ring? And then the Men got nine, I don't know why. Because the Elf-Smiths liked us better than they liked the Dwarves? Part of a plot started by Sauron?
The great rings (the three, seven, nine and One) weren't the only ones, you know. There were lesser rings, but we don't really know anything about them. I think it might be that each ring was originally made for a particular person. The elf-rings went to Galadril, Cirdan, and Gil-Galad, the three greatest Elves this side of the sea. The Seven presumably went to various Dwarf kings, since one belonged to the line of kings that were Thorin's ancestors. As for the Nine, it's possible that they were made for nine great Men of the time. We don't really know. At least I don't, maybe the answer is in one of the "History of Middle-Earth" books that I haven't read.
317 posted on 2/17/02 3:41 PM Pacific by JenB
Everything looks correct, but there's one thing you left out that should be explained. The first time that Sauron tried to raise an army, the men of Westernesse were still mostly good, and they raised a gigantic army that dwarfed Sauron's and brought it to Middle Earth. Sauron abased himself, and with his silver toungue work his way into a position of influence in Numenor. So while the Numenorians were becoming greedy and speaking against the ban keeping mortals out of Aman, they were also participating in Morgoth worship guided by Sauron.
325 posted on 2/17/02 8:37 PM Pacific by Romestamo
"I thought that at this point, Gandalf expected to be with Frodo and would help him give up the ring the same way he helped Bilbo. '
I am not sure about that. Frodo was chosen because he was a Hobbit. While they are small people, they are very happy people, with lots of good memories. They are also, wholesome people, not devious, not nasty, not desirous of power - the qualities which Sauron and Saruman use to deceive and ensnare people to their will. Like the saying goes - you cannot cheat an honest man and Frodo and Hobbits in general were honest people.
328 posted on 2/17/02 9:11 PM Pacific by gore3000
seven stars and seven stones and one white tree
What are the seven stars? are these the Silmarils? What are they? I know of the seven stones, I believe these are the Palantir, and the white tree, which was planted but has withered (we learn later) in Gondor.
331 posted on 2/18/02 8:15 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Well, the seven stars are not the Silmarils - there were only three of them and by this time, only the one that Earendil wears is still around. I'm not entirely sure what the seven stars are. Possibly some jewels - after all, Isildur does wear a jewel on his forehead. The seven stones, yes, are the palantiri, and the white tree is the one that got planted at Minas Tirith.
332 posted on 2/18/02 8:49 AM Pacific by JenB
They are also, wholesome people, not devious, not nasty, not desirous of power
I'm glad you said that! I've been thinking about it all day (things are kind of slow here at work.) Gandalf says that Bilbo escaped the ring's evil because he began his ownership with pity for Gollum. Frodo resists the corruption because he didn't covet the ring in the first place. Of course being a hobbit helped because, as you said, the are wholesome people...not desirous of power.
Then I thought about Smeagol who was a "curious-minded" hobbit-like creature. According to Gandalf, the reason Smeagol turned into Gollum is that he started his ownership by murdering to get it. So being "hobbit-like" didn't save him (especially since he used the ring to be nasty in general.) It did, however, leave him with at least a hope of being cured.
338 posted on 2/18/02 1:40 PM Pacific by Overtaxed
Elves do have pointy ears, but Lord of the Rings certainly is ambiguous. The best evidence is in The Etymologies, where the root for "leaf" and "ear" in Elvish are identical, and Tolkien writes: "The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than..." and then what follows illegible, but it probably says "human".
342 posted on 2/18/02 2:58 PM Pacific by Romestamo
Yeah, making the Ring so malevolent was a really good choice on the part of Jackson. Partly I would guess he didn't want 'newbies' arguing that the Ring could be used to destroy Sauron. He had to balance so much between the fans and the outsiders, making sure that the fans didn't get bored with long discussions of why the Ring must be destroyed - we all know that already! - but not leaving the newcomers wondering why these dudes are, like, so afraid of jewelry, man. (I'm refering to those people who think the Hobbits are smoking anything but tobacco!)
348 posted on 2/18/02 6:11 PM Pacific by JenB
Is he part elf?
He has Elvish blood in him. He is descended from Elros who was Elrond's brother.
They were Half-Elven and were given the choice of being Elven or Man.
Elrond chose to be Elven and Elros chose to be Man. Aragorn was his descendant.
When Aragorn and Arwen married, the two lines were re-united.
349 posted on 2/18/02 6:18 PM Pacific by Carolina
I remember reading that the nine were various Northern Chieftans, but I don't think any of them are named (We know a few of their names after becoming Nazgûl, but I hardly think that a self respecting Arnorien man would call himself "Gothmog".).
Quite impossible. The Great Rings were made around the year 1500 of the Second Age. Arnor was founded around 3320 of the same Age.
It is quite possible that one or more of the Nine were Dunedain in ancestry, from those who returned to Middle Earth during the Second Age. Remember that Sauron deceived those who took the Rings. There was not necessarily anything evil about the Nine Rings at the time their Ringbearers took them up. Sauron made the One Ring after the others and thereby corrupted them.
The Elves escaped because they refused to wear or use their Rings while Sauron held the One. The Dwarves were not totally corrupted because they were unusually resistant to being dominated. Men were not as discerning as the Elves and were more susceptible than the Dwarves. The nine kings were not necessarily originally evil, which just adds to the pathos and horror of their present condition.
355 posted on 2/19/02 9:02 PM Pacific by Restorer
Of course, thanks for setting me straight.
I went back and reread some stuff, and it turns out there's only one Nazgûl to whose origin is alluded, and that's in The Hunt for the Ring in Unfinished Tales. Khamûl, the second in command, is known as the "Black Easterling." This might only be a reference to his habitation as a Nazgûl, but I prefer the other interpretation, because it gives our first glimpse of who the nine originally were.
356 posted on 2/20/02 3:55 AM Pacific by Romestamo
By the way, Gothmog was also the name of the chief Balrog. He was slain at the destruction of Gondolin by an Elf-lord, Ecthelion of the Fountain, who died in the fight. No wonder the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul liked the name!