CHAPTER II
The Shadow of the Past
Excerpts from our second chapter to get us going….
The talk did not die down in nine or even ninety days….…“If only that dratted wizard will leave young Frodo alone, perhaps he’ll settle down and grow some hobbit-sense,” they said. And to all appearance the wizard did leave Frodo alone, and he did settle down, but the growth of hobbit-sense was not very noticeable. Indeed, he at once began to carry on Bilbo’s reputation for oddity…
…He lived alone, as Bilbo had done; but he had a good many friends, especially among the younger hobbits (mostly descendents of the Old Took) who had as children been fond of Bilbo and often in and out of Bag End…. His closest friends were Peregrin Took (usually called Pippin), and Merry Brandybuck (his real name was Meriadoc, but that was seldom remembered). Frodo went tramping all over the Shire with them; but more often he wandered by himself, and to the amazement of sensible folk he was sometimes seen far from home walking in the hills and woods under the starlight. Merry and Pippin suspected that he visited the Elves at times, as Bilbo had done…
…As time went on, people began to notice that Frodo also showed signs of good ‘preservation’: outwardly he retained the appearance of a robust and energetic hobbit just out of his tweens. “Some folk have all the luck,” they said; but it was not until Frodo approached the usually more sober age of fifty that they began to think it queer.
Frodo himself, after the first shock, found that being his own master and the Mr. Baggins of Bag End was rather pleasant. For some years he was quite happy and did not worry much about the future. But half unknown to himself the regret that he had not gone with Bilbo was steadily growing. He found himself wondering at times, especially in the autumn, about the wild lands, and strange visions of mountains that he had never seen came into his dreams. He began to say to himself: “Perhaps I shall cross the River myself one day.” To which the other half of his mind always replied: “Not yet”…
OK – Good Morning!!!
180 posted on 2/16/02 9:35 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
A chapter per week was the plan, but Chapter I took less than 24 hours before the guests here began to wander... some chapters may take more time, some less... but these early chapters sort-of continue the same theme, so I think it is OK to continue on. Forgive me for not promising to hold to a schedule...
I am enjoying the detail and time Tolkien gave to developing the hobbit characters and the foreshadowing of the dark times to come before they set out. The film could not reasonably have been expected to do all that... A full 17 years passes between the party and the beginning of the journey... and I think it took Gandalf about two minutes to get our Frodo out the door in the film, although it was hinted that he had traveled far...
More excerpts:
…Frodo began to feel restless, and the old paths seemed to well-trodden. He looked at maps, and wondered what lay beyond their edges…. He took to wandering further afield and more often by himself; and Merry and his other friends watched him anxiously. Often he was seen walking and talking with the strange wayfarers that began at this time to appear in the Shire….…Elves, who seldom walked in the Shire, could now be seen passing westward through the woods in the evening, passing and not returning…
...Frodo often met strange dwarves of far countries, seeking refuge in the West. They were troubled, and some spoke in whispers of the Enemy and of the Land of Mordor...
185 posted on 2/16/02 10:14 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Ooooh, Chapter 2. Great! I remember the first time I read LOTR. This chapter got me hooked.
"You have not seen him," Gandalf broke in. [referring to Gollum]At first, I was disappointed that this section was transposed to the Mines of Moria. But after subsequent viewings, it has that kind of gut-wrenching impact, so close to Gandalf's fall and hearing Gollum's footsteps."No, and I don't want to," said Frodo. "I can't understand you. Do you mean to say that you, and the Elves, have let him live on after all those horrible deeds? No at any rate he is as bad as an Orc, and just an enemy. He deserves death."
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement....snip....And he is bound up with the fate of the Ring. My heart tells me that he has some part to play yet, for good or ill, before the end; and when that comes, the pity of Bilbo may rule the fate of many--yours not least..."
186 posted on 2/16/02 10:14 AM Pacific by Carolina
Another Freeper (and I apologize, but I can't remember who) pointed out that by putting the story of the Last Alliance in the movie's prologue, the movie changed the tone of the book. In the book, the innocent cheeriness of the first chapter is undiluted by any knowledge of the Shadow until the second, giving us a steady progression from light into the darkness that hangs over the rest of the books. In the movie, on the other hand, we have a "light sandwich," with only a brief enjoyment of the ideal life of the Shire placed between the prologue and Gandalf's search for answers.
That's not a criticism of the movie, really, just an observation of the difference a small change in format can make to the tone.
Yours in Truth,
188 posted on 2/16/02 10:20 AM Pacific by Buggman
A lot of the background from Chapter 2 was moved around to other parts of the story for the film, like all of the history at the beginning of the film... we did not learn about any of that until Chapter 2 or Rivendell. My review posted here from the first time I saw the film complained a bit that the dark forces were brought out so early and vividly in the film. I loved most of all the innocence at the beginning of this story, and the foreshadowing that begins in hints and whispers. Tolkien had a gift for that, but Jackson's way works too... most people would not have been satisfied, I guess to see Frodo and Gandalf sit around that table for two hours and spell it out slowly... though some of us would have.
189 posted on 2/16/02 10:26 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
That is interesting--they took the story that Gandalf related in Chapter 2 and placed in the very beginning with Galadriel telling the story instead. It does make a huge difference, because in the book the shadow and threat of what is to come creeps slowly onto the idyllic scene. The reader slowly becomes aware of the gravity of the threat, rather than having it presented full-force right at the start. Something that a book can do where a movie can't necessarily present as successfully...
There was an awful lot of care and thought put into how a story is told in a movie setting as opposed to on the printed page. I'm amazed at how well they balanced their faithfulness to the story with the necessity of adapting it to an entirely different medium.
-penny
193 posted on 2/16/02 10:34 AM Pacific by Penny1
I think the most important thing in Chapter 2 is the establishment of Sam's character before the journey began. Frodo may be the ringbearer, but Sam is just as much the protagonist. The way that the journey changes him is one of the best aspects of the book.
In this chapter, Sam let's Sandyman walk all over him at the Green Dragon and has such little understanding of Gandalf as to believe Gandalf would turn him into "something unnatural." And, last but not least, his feelings about embarking on this important journey can be summed up as "Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!"
195 posted on 2/16/02 10:38 AM Pacific by Romestamo
After our little chat on the "other thread" about how Sam reminds us sometimes of a faithful golden retriever, I cracked up totally at this line:
[Gandalf speaking to Samwise]"You shall go away with Mr. Frodo!" "Me sir!" cried Sam, springing up like a dog invited for a walk. "Me go and see Elves and all! Hooray!" he shouted, and then burst into tears.
Sam is such a dear....
-penny
196 posted on 2/16/02 10:39 AM Pacific by Penny1
I think it is interesting that Merry, rather than Sam, is given the first emphasis in Frodo's circle of friends... Merry accompanying him on his long walks, Sam defending him from the Green Dragon, but introduced as an employee, rather than a close friend. I wonder sometimes if Tolkien’s view of the roles the characters would eventually play was still developing in his own mind as he wrote.
199 posted on 2/16/02 10:48 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I noticed that too--both Merry and Pippin were singled out as being Frodo's closest friends while Sam is never mentioned in such terms. And you're right, Merry is the one who is the most involved in Frodo's life. Yet we are given many more glimpses of Sam than we are of M&P at this point--he is more fully developed as a character, as if we're being well set up for him to be the one whose life is most closely bound to Frodo's.
Perhaps the idea is that while Merry and Pippin became Frodo's friends during the peaceful years before the mission begins, Frodo's and Sam's friendship is forged in the trials and hardships of the mission itself. And it is their friendship that makes the biggest impact on the story.
There is also a great deal of "class consciousness" that underpins the story--Merry and Pippin are seen as Frodo's equals in class, while Sam is on a lower rung of society...at the beginning of the story...
-penny
200 posted on 2/16/02 11:01 AM Pacific by Penny1
For some reason, this excerpt really got me thinking:
Frodo says, "I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is a firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again."
Was this part of the story written while Tolkien's son was away from home? I was remembering reading somewhere that some of the book was written while his son was away, and it doesn't take much to substitute England for The Shire to get a sense of some of what The Shire represented to Tolkien in real life.... Love of one's country is indeed a powerful thing.
-penny
202 posted on 2/16/02 11:06 AM Pacific by Penny1
According to the Foreword, The Shadow of the Past is one of the oldest parts and was written way before 1939.
203 posted on 2/16/02 11:14 AM Pacific by Overtaxed
Love of one's country is indeed a powerful thing
True, and that love drives many of our main characters doesn't it? - and that in Frodo's case leaving it behind might be the only thing that saves it. "I should like to save the Shire, if I could - though there have been times when I thought the inhabitants too stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them. But I don't feel like that now..." from the same passage you quoted. If he left, perhaps the evil would pass around the Shire and leave with him.
204 posted on 2/16/02 11:16 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I did manage to read the section on The Rings of Power from the Silmarillion last night, and one thing jumped out at me in particular. Gandalf's ring was the Ring of Fire. The name conjured up for me the image of his battle with the balrog in Moria, but that is not at all the emphasis presented in "The Rings of Power." Instead, the Ring of Fire which Gandalf possesses increases his ability to enflame the hearts of others to heroic deeds. Hence his ability to spark in the hobbits their drive and commitment to performing great acts of heroism beyond any that they themselves would beleive possible. I think about how each time one of them steps out, it is Gandalf who is present to spur them on--Frodo and Sam at the beginning, Merry and Pippin later on in the story. All who accept Gandalf's leadership arrive at greater achievements than they believe are even possible, all because of his encouragement and influence.
Just knowing that bit about the Ring of Fire really opened my eyes to Gandalf's role, particularly in how it worked itself out in his relationships with all the characters in the story.
"Take now this Ring," he [Círdan] said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill."
-penny
207 posted on 2/16/02 11:24 AM Pacific by Penny1
Why, do you suppose, the fact that Gandalf bears one of the rings of power was hidden from us, buried in the Silmarillian (and only briefly mentioned one other place). Is this a prize withheld by Tolkien on purpose, one of the hidden layers to be learned only by "varsity" geeks that chose to study further?
209 posted on 2/16/02 11:31 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
The ring Narya is undoubtedly what Gandalf is refering to when he calls himself the wielder of the flame of Anor (Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun). Conversely, the balrog is a servant of the flame of Udûn (Udûn is the name of a region in Mordor, but etymologically means "bad darkness," or something along those lines).
212 posted on 2/16/02 11:40 AM Pacific by Romestamo
Oh, and one other thing. That Círdan gave the ring to Olórin (Gandalf) and not to Curunír (Saruman) is considered the source for the grudge that Saruman has always had against Gandalf.
213 posted on 2/16/02 11:45 AM Pacific by Romestamo
While it may be stating the obvious, I think we should take the time to at least hear this again, lest anyone wonder later if the ring could ever be saved....
"A mortal, Frodo, who keeps one of the Great Rings, does not die, but he does not grow or obtain more life, he merely continues, until at last every minute is a weariness. And if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible, he fades... Yes, sooner or later - later, if he is strong or well-meaning to begin with, but neither strength nor good purpose will last - sooner or later the dark power will devour him"."Bilbo knew no more than he told you, I am sure," said Gandalf. "He would certainly never have passed on to you anything that he thought would be a danger, even though I promised to look after you. He thought the ring was very beautiful, and very useful at need; and if anything was wrong or queer, it was himself..."
The ring cannot be possessed by even the pure of purpose for long without the evil turning him, and Bilbo is absolved from guilt for the "dirty trick" inflicted on poor Frodo.
214 posted on 2/16/02 11:52 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Spoilers from Return of The King included below:
I'm not sure, but it's emphasized in that chapter of The Silmarillion that he was not revealed as possessing a ring of power until he left Middle Earth...i.e., when we see him leave with Frodo at the end of Return of The King. I think perhaps it is hidden from us because it is also hidden from the rest of the characters. And as to what the ring actually does, I think that is the case with all of the rings of the elves. Without digging deeper, we don't really find out that much...I think perhaps Tolkien was holding out some things for those who would want to dig deeper.
None of the rings of the elves were mentioned in much detail as to their purpose in The Lord of The Rings, and only Galdriel's Nenya was mentioned or displayed at all until we reach the very end of the tale. But I think Tolkien does that--hides certain things from view, yet having them in mind behind the scenes so to speak. In some ways, I think it is a reward for the reader, it's as if he's saying, "keep reading....there are yet more secrets in store...."
-penny
215 posted on 2/16/02 11:55 AM Pacific by Penny1
Okay, back to Chapter 2.
Here is Gandalf keeping his promise to Bilbo about keeping an eye on Frodo:
Then he paid Frodo a brief visit, and after taking a good look at him he went off again. During the next year or two he had turned up fairly often, coming unexpectedly after dusk, and going off without warning before sunrise. He would not discuss his own business and journeys, and seemed chiefly interested in small news about Frodo's health and doings.Something's afoot. Right before this we see Sam talking about the High Elves leaving, "Sailing, sailing, sailing over the sea."[Nine years later......]
They looked hard at one another.
"All well eh?" said Gandalf. "You look the same as ever, Frodo!"
"So do you," Frodo replied; but secretly he thought that Gandalf looked older and more careworn. He pressed him for news of himself and of the wide world...
I simply don't understand why people think Tolkien's prose is overbearing.
216 posted on 2/16/02 12:02 PM Pacific by Carolina
I think you hit on it... If, after all, Gandalf's role is to inspire the hearts of people to valor, then it should be subtle, a mentoring that leads the hero to his own decision. For the hero to have known that there was a greater power at work could lead the reader to think that Gandalf was driving people through trickery, no more noble than Saruman's voice.
And yet Gandalf says "There are other forces at work besides the will of evil, and that is an encouraging thought" Clearly Gandalf is once again saying mysterious things without explaining all of their meanings, unless we dig deeper.
217 posted on 2/16/02 12:05 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Good point. My opinion has always been that Gandalf looked more careworn because of all the work that went into capturing and interrogating Gollum, as well as general stress from worry that the ring is the One Ring.
As for the departing elves, I have a bit of sympathy for them. Most of them were undoubtedly around when they went through so much trouble to defeat Sauron a first time (and some maybe still from the battles with Morgoth), and the knowledge that he was returning stronger than ever would make me want to up and quit, too.
218 posted on 2/16/02 12:08 PM Pacific by Romestamo
I also thought it was encouraging how Gandalf said that Bilbo would be all right, that the ring would have no serious lasting effect on him. In fact, Bilbo came out of the whole affair much more "whole" than Frodo.
The scene where Frodo and Gandalf talk about destroying the ring, and seeing how difficult it would be, is quite sobering. Particularly, Gandalf saying "I could not 'make' you [destroy it]--except by force, which would break your mind." I found myself thinking that it was likely this was what was being hinted at in the movie when Frodo reacts in such pain at Gimli striking the ring with his axe. Yikes.
The significance of Bilbo "giving" the ring to Frodo is fascinating to me too. I believe this is the only instance up to that point of the history of The Ring of Power of anyone "giving" the One Ring to anyone--always before it was attained through violence or through trickery and through the ring's own choosing. But in Bilbo giving the ring to Frodo, the ring's power to choose its bearer is further broken. How crucial it was that Bilbo have the strength of will to give it up!
-penny
219 posted on 2/16/02 12:14 PM Pacific by Penny1
As for the departing elves, I have a bit of sympathy for them. Most of them were undoubtedly around when they went through so much trouble to defeat Sauron a first time (and some maybe still from the battles with Morgoth), and the knowledge that he was returning stronger than ever would make me want to up and quit, too.
Some of the more obscure writings of Tokien give more profound reasons for the Elves bailing out of Middle Earth.
Over millennia the fire of their “souls,” which are inherently free of evil, begin to cause a “fading” of their bodies, which are inevitably tainted with the evil introduced into all matter by Melkor, the master of Sauron. All of Middle Earth was, in a sense, the “Ring” of Melkor. Even after his destruction the matter of Middle Earth did not fit very well with the souls of the Elves, which led to a growing disquiet and desire to escape to Aman, the only place they could live at peace.
222 posted on 2/16/02 12:27 PM Pacific by Restorer
The ring Narya is undoubtedly what Gandalf is refering to when he calls himself the wielder of the flame of Anor (Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun).
There may be a deeper meaning. In some of Tolkien’s more obscure (later) works, the sun is a female Maiar, Anor, who is given by Varda a light (secret fire?) direct from Iluvatar that is uncontaminated by Melkor’s evil. Melkor angrily attacks and rapes Anor, who flees. Perhaps the “secret fire of Anor” is the source of the power of all the Istari, who are emissaries of the Valar to assist those who are fighting Sauron.
This meaning would take the “secret fire” back to the original Music of the Ainur, a great many millennia before the Rings were made. This would tie in with the light that is seen “leaking” from around Gandalf, especially after he returns as the White. Perhaps while dead in Aman, he is given greater access to or power over the Fire.
224 posted on 2/16/02 12:39 PM Pacific by Restorer
Good point. Gandalf, as a Maiar, is not OF Arda (the World) in the same sense that Elves and Men are. He is of an order of beings that existed before Arda and in a real sense actually made Arda. Thus the death of a Maiar can be expected to be handled differently than Elves, who go to the Halls of Mandos till they are reincarnated, or Men, who go there briefly before leaving the Circles of the World.
Your theory would be of a piece with the power, which Tolkien constantly emphasizes, of Iluvatar to introduce wild cards (miracles, if you will) outside of the normal course of event. The Destruction of Numenor and removal of Aman from Earth near the end of the Second Age is the classic example of this.
226 posted on 2/16/02 1:13 PM Pacific by Restorer
One of my favorite aspects that first arises in this chapter is the power language and words.
"I cannot read the fiery letters," said Frodo in a quavering voice."No," said Gandalf, "but I can. The letters are Elvish, of an ancient mode, but the language is that of Mordor, which I will not utter here."
Merely speaking of evil will empower it, and conversely, speaking of good will drive evil away. For example, there is Frodo's use of "O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!" on Weathertop.
227 posted on 2/16/02 3:14 PM Pacific by ecurbh
Thank you for this thread. Tolkein's the greatest writer of the 20th Century in my book, and that just might be too light a praise. In Jr. HS and before, I read all of Tolkein's works over and over again and I've recently rediscovered the books with the release of the first movie. I haven't yet had time to read the thread in its entirety and I've only just discovered it, but I'd love to participate as I have time.
Amazing all the details one remembers after nearly two decades and it's been a delight rediscovering forgotten details (having now re-read all of the Lord of the Rings). I'll read Silmarillian again when time permits. I lost all interest in Fantasy before High School since none of the other writers ever created anything approaching Tolkein, notwithstanding their efforts to. Alas that Tolkein, being as we of the lesser, and later Men, did not have the longevity of the first Numenorians, or better, of the Eldar.
Warmest regards and thanks again.
228 posted on 2/16/02 3:45 PM Pacific by fire and forget
It is an excerpt from the complete poem about the rings of power:
Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all. One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
236 posted on 2/16/02 5:18 PM Pacific by ecurbh
Thankfully, we aren't subjected to much of this tongue in the Lord of the Rings.
Elrond certainly was freaked out:
"Never before has any voice dared to utter words of that tongue in Imladris, Gandalf the Grey."But Gandalf was unapologetic.
It's like he was saying, "Better get used to it, 'cuz if that dude Sauron wins, you're gonna hear it in every corner."
238 posted on 2/16/02 5:26 PM Pacific by Carolina
I can't even read it and smile, let alone try to speak it... It does reek evil doesn't it? And the elvish language is so beautiful. Tolkien was a true poet to capture the soul of language to the point where he could create terror or beauty from the sound of the language itself, without any meaning being necessary to understand the message. And of course, he was thorough enough, that if you wanted to, you could dig deeper and understand it as well.
239 posted on 2/16/02 5:28 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I pointed out to someone earlier that Sindarin, the language of the Grey-Elves, had roughly the phonological characteristics of British-Welsh, because it fit their epic history, which reads like Old-English legend.
Perhaps more interesting is Quenya, the high Elven tongue. Because its place in Middle-Earth is that of the language of knowledge and history, it is in someways very similar to Latin, such as in syntactically. It gains it truly beautiful, flowing style from a special blend of Finnish, Latin, and Greek.
240 posted on 2/16/02 5:35 PM Pacific by Romestamo
Anor, apart from being an older name for Minas Tirith, also means the sun
This is off the subject, but I have to ask something. Sir SuziQ and I had talked about building a new house and giving it a name. Since we wanted it to be on a hill and to incorporate passive solar, we thought Sunny Hill would be nice. When we went to see the movie, we began to wonder what that would translate into in 'Elvish'. I looked on a website and found that 'Amon' was hill and 'Nar' was sun, but that was Quenyan. Where did you find 'Anor'? "Amon Anor" does sound nice!
Sheesh! Are we Tolkien geeks or what!!?
245 posted on 2/16/02 5:56 PM Pacific by SuziQ
It does make you wonder, doesn't it?
I find myself wondering if perhaps Gandalf expected or hoped that Frodo would eventually mature and grow in his ability to resist the pull of the ring. In many ways, he does--for example, (MORE SPOILERS) he manages to keep from wearing the ring when the Nazgûl come close to him just outside Minus Morgul.
Also, I wonder if Gandalf never believed that Frodo and Sam would be made to go to Mordor all alone without himself or others of the Fellowship to help him.
I suppose it's all wrapped up in his statement, "Even the very wise cannot see all ends...."
I read a great review of the movie that summed up the idea of the story that the entire task seems entirely hopeless...and grows more and more hopeless as the story progresses. Until at the last, success of ANY kind seems utterly impossible....and yet...success is achieved. It's all about doing the right thing and having faith that it will somehow be enough no matter how impossible it looks.
-penny
250 posted on 2/16/02 6:16 PM Pacific by Penny1
I think it is interesting that Merry, rather than Sam, is given the first emphasis in Frodo's circle of friends...
Frodo doesn't hang out with Sam the way he does with Merry and Pippin. I think that although Frodo is fond of Sam, they are not all that close. After all, you don't hear the Gamgee's being mentioned at all during the Party (they weren't part of the Gross) so I believe they "running" things. Frodo knows how Sam likes hearing about Elves, but he never takes him along on his wanderings to meet any of them.
At the end of Chapter 2 it seems that Frodo hasn't realized how devoted Sam is:
"He won't hurt you," said Frodo, hardly able to keep from laughing, although he was himself startled and rather puzzled.
254 posted on 2/16/02 6:36 PM Pacific by Overtaxed
Thanks, HOTDog, for adding my name to the Fellowship of the Ping; I'll do my best not to slow the group down on the long journey ahead.
Prompted by the popularity of the LOTR movie in the US (I'm in Japan), I just recently picked up the series for the first time in twenty years, and I'm slightly past the halfway point of The Two Towers now. The movie hasn't arrived here yet; it's scheduled to open in theaters on 2 March, though there will be a late night/early morning preview showing this coming Saturday. Since the movie will not end until after train and subway service stop, it'll be an all-night affair...I guess we'll know then who the real Tolkien fans are.
Despite Tolkien's fame in the English-speaking world, none of my Japanese friends had even heard of LOTR prior to seeing the TV ads for the movie, though the Lord of the Rings series, The Hobbit, and The Silmarillion have been available in Japanese for some years now, and such texts as The Atlas of Middle Earth can be found alongside them in bookstores. Most bookstores of any decent size have the entire LOTR series displayed prominently (right next to the Harry Potter books), and Tolkien is likely to gain a considerable number of new fans on this side of the Pacific once the movie arrives.
I actually went out and bought the Japanese-language versions of The Hobbit and the first two volumes of the paperback LOTR today -- hey, if you think three volumes of Tolkien in English is daunting, try nine volumes (albeit not very thick ones) in translation! -- and, if this discussion group doesn't tear through chapters like Ents through stone, I might try to keep up. For those most unquenchably curious hobbits out there, the first volume of LOTR is entitled Tabi no Nakama in Japanese, which translates as "Traveling Companions."
Has anyone else out there read LOTR in translation? I think it might be interesting to discuss some of the differences between the original English version and translated versions -- including variations in literary style, approaches taken to convey dialects, the care taken to maintain the rhyme and rhythm of the poetry/songs, etc. Having skimmed through the Japanese books I bought today, it struck me just how much of Tolkien's appeal lies in his use of language and not simply in the ripping good yarns he tells.
279 posted on 2/17/02 2:12 AM Pacific by The_Expatriate
Well, looks like you guys have been having fun! I've spent my time away thinking about what exactly I should talk about, and figuring out what should be discussed in more depth later, so here goes.
At the end of the First Age in Middle-Earth, the host of the Valar (demigods, basically) overthrew Morgoth, who was a very powerful evil spirit. Morgoth had been ruling Middle-Earth and warring with the Elves and some Men for a very long time. Morgoth basically equals Satan.
Anyway, Morgoth was defeated, and as a reward, the Men who had fought with the Elves were given an island out between Middle-Earth and the Blessed Realms. The island was called Numenor, and sometimes Westernesse, which is how it is referred to in the chapter we are disussing. The men of Numenor were taught many things by the Elves.
Now, Morgoth's chief servant was Sauron. When Morgoth was defeated, he surrendered, but later he fled and hid himself. Slowly he began to gather power to himself, but nobody knew about it. Then he came to the Elves of Eregion (also called Hollin) and the Rings of Power were made. He had a hand in making most of them, but not the Elven-Rings. Celebrimbor the Elf-Smith did not trust Sauron. (This probably goes way back to the problems Feanor had with Morgoth over the Silmarils; Celebrimbor was Feanor's grandson. I can give you more details on this if you need it.) Anyway, the Elf-rings were hidden from Sauron, and so the One Ring, which Sauron soon forged, had less power over them.
Sauron, as we all know, forged the Ring in Orodruin - Mt. Doom. Part of the reason he settled in Mordor was because of Mt Doom, but he also increased its powers. It's not your average volcano.
While all this is going on in Middle-Earth, over in Numenor the kings are becoming more proud and forgetting their roots. Although the kings are descended from Elros Half-Elven, brother of Elrond and the child of Earendil and Elwing, the laws of Numenor are becoming increasingly hard on elf-friends. Then Ar-Pharazon the Golden comes to the throne. He is the proudest king of all, and he takes his army to Middle-Earth and forces Sauron to swear fealty. Sauron is taken back to Numenor as a captive - but he has the Ring. Ar-Pharazon falls under Sauron's power, and the Numenoreans turn to darkness.
Finally, the Valar destroy Numenor because Ar-Pharazon tries to make war on Aman. Numenor is swallowed by the sea. However, one family, descendants of Elros and still loyal to the Elves, escapes. Elendil and his sons Isildur and Anarion flee, with nine ships full of people and treasures- seven stars and seven stones and one white tree.
Elendil founds the North-Kingdom of Arnor, and his sons rule together in Gondor. They build the great city of Osgiliath, the watch-city of Minas Isil, and the white city, Minas Anor.
Then comes the Last Alliance. Sauron had escaped the destruction of Numenor, though he was weakened, and now seeing his evil, Men and Elves banded together. The great Elf-King, Gil-Galad, lead his people, and Elendil led the armies of Men, and they fought. Elendil and Gil-Galad defeated Sauron, but they perished doing so. Then Isildur took the Ring from Sauron's hand, as wergild for his dead father and brother.
One thing that you may not realize from the movie is how few people knew that Isildur took the Ring. Although it's not made clear until the Council of Elrod, I think I can talk about it here. In the last duel between Sauron and Elendil and Gil-Galad, there weren't many spectators; just Isildur, Elrond, and Cirdan. (Incidentally Gil-Galad originally had one of the Rings; when he died, it went to Elrond.) So only those three knew the truth of what had happened; and Isildur died two years later, ambushed by Orcs. He did write the famous parchment in Minas Tirith but apparently nobody knew about it.
Is there anything else anyone would like to know about this period?
296 posted on 2/17/02 11:01 AM Pacific by JenB
Incidentally I wanted to say that I'm working on a site to summarize the history, for quick reference or what not. You already know that but I wanted to get the address out there for other people. It's here. I've finished summarizing the First Age, the age of legends, which doesn't much come into LotR, other than a few mentions of the Silmarils and Beren and Luthien - oh, and Earendil, of course. So for people who have yet to read Sil., this is available.
303 posted on 2/17/02 11:32 AM Pacific by JenB
Because, um - well, there were seven 'fathers of the Dwarves' that resulted in seven Dwarf families. So maybe each family got one ring? And then the Men got nine, I don't know why. Because the Elf-Smiths liked us better than they liked the Dwarves? Part of a plot started by Sauron?
The great rings (the three, seven, nine and One) weren't the only ones, you know. There were lesser rings, but we don't really know anything about them. I think it might be that each ring was originally made for a particular person. The elf-rings went to Galadril, Cirdan, and Gil-Galad, the three greatest Elves this side of the sea. The Seven presumably went to various Dwarf kings, since one belonged to the line of kings that were Thorin's ancestors. As for the Nine, it's possible that they were made for nine great Men of the time. We don't really know. At least I don't, maybe the answer is in one of the "History of Middle-Earth" books that I haven't read.
317 posted on 2/17/02 3:41 PM Pacific by JenB
Everything looks correct, but there's one thing you left out that should be explained. The first time that Sauron tried to raise an army, the men of Westernesse were still mostly good, and they raised a gigantic army that dwarfed Sauron's and brought it to Middle Earth. Sauron abased himself, and with his silver toungue work his way into a position of influence in Numenor. So while the Numenorians were becoming greedy and speaking against the ban keeping mortals out of Aman, they were also participating in Morgoth worship guided by Sauron.
325 posted on 2/17/02 8:37 PM Pacific by Romestamo
"I thought that at this point, Gandalf expected to be with Frodo and would help him give up the ring the same way he helped Bilbo. '
I am not sure about that. Frodo was chosen because he was a Hobbit. While they are small people, they are very happy people, with lots of good memories. They are also, wholesome people, not devious, not nasty, not desirous of power - the qualities which Sauron and Saruman use to deceive and ensnare people to their will. Like the saying goes - you cannot cheat an honest man and Frodo and Hobbits in general were honest people.
328 posted on 2/17/02 9:11 PM Pacific by gore3000
seven stars and seven stones and one white tree
What are the seven stars? are these the Silmarils? What are they? I know of the seven stones, I believe these are the Palantir, and the white tree, which was planted but has withered (we learn later) in Gondor.
331 posted on 2/18/02 8:15 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Well, the seven stars are not the Silmarils - there were only three of them and by this time, only the one that Earendil wears is still around. I'm not entirely sure what the seven stars are. Possibly some jewels - after all, Isildur does wear a jewel on his forehead. The seven stones, yes, are the palantiri, and the white tree is the one that got planted at Minas Tirith.
332 posted on 2/18/02 8:49 AM Pacific by JenB
They are also, wholesome people, not devious, not nasty, not desirous of power
I'm glad you said that! I've been thinking about it all day (things are kind of slow here at work.) Gandalf says that Bilbo escaped the ring's evil because he began his ownership with pity for Gollum. Frodo resists the corruption because he didn't covet the ring in the first place. Of course being a hobbit helped because, as you said, the are wholesome people...not desirous of power.
Then I thought about Smeagol who was a "curious-minded" hobbit-like creature. According to Gandalf, the reason Smeagol turned into Gollum is that he started his ownership by murdering to get it. So being "hobbit-like" didn't save him (especially since he used the ring to be nasty in general.) It did, however, leave him with at least a hope of being cured.
338 posted on 2/18/02 1:40 PM Pacific by Overtaxed
Elves do have pointy ears, but Lord of the Rings certainly is ambiguous. The best evidence is in The Etymologies, where the root for "leaf" and "ear" in Elvish are identical, and Tolkien writes: "The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than..." and then what follows illegible, but it probably says "human".
342 posted on 2/18/02 2:58 PM Pacific by Romestamo
Yeah, making the Ring so malevolent was a really good choice on the part of Jackson. Partly I would guess he didn't want 'newbies' arguing that the Ring could be used to destroy Sauron. He had to balance so much between the fans and the outsiders, making sure that the fans didn't get bored with long discussions of why the Ring must be destroyed - we all know that already! - but not leaving the newcomers wondering why these dudes are, like, so afraid of jewelry, man. (I'm refering to those people who think the Hobbits are smoking anything but tobacco!)
348 posted on 2/18/02 6:11 PM Pacific by JenB
Is he part elf?
He has Elvish blood in him. He is descended from Elros who was Elrond's brother.
They were Half-Elven and were given the choice of being Elven or Man.
Elrond chose to be Elven and Elros chose to be Man. Aragorn was his descendant.
When Aragorn and Arwen married, the two lines were re-united.
349 posted on 2/18/02 6:18 PM Pacific by Carolina
I remember reading that the nine were various Northern Chieftans, but I don't think any of them are named (We know a few of their names after becoming Nazgûl, but I hardly think that a self respecting Arnorien man would call himself "Gothmog".).
Quite impossible. The Great Rings were made around the year 1500 of the Second Age. Arnor was founded around 3320 of the same Age.
It is quite possible that one or more of the Nine were Dunedain in ancestry, from those who returned to Middle Earth during the Second Age. Remember that Sauron deceived those who took the Rings. There was not necessarily anything evil about the Nine Rings at the time their Ringbearers took them up. Sauron made the One Ring after the others and thereby corrupted them.
The Elves escaped because they refused to wear or use their Rings while Sauron held the One. The Dwarves were not totally corrupted because they were unusually resistant to being dominated. Men were not as discerning as the Elves and were more susceptible than the Dwarves. The nine kings were not necessarily originally evil, which just adds to the pathos and horror of their present condition.
355 posted on 2/19/02 9:02 PM Pacific by Restorer
Of course, thanks for setting me straight.
I went back and reread some stuff, and it turns out there's only one Nazgûl to whose origin is alluded, and that's in The Hunt for the Ring in Unfinished Tales. Khamûl, the second in command, is known as the "Black Easterling." This might only be a reference to his habitation as a Nazgûl, but I prefer the other interpretation, because it gives our first glimpse of who the nine originally were.
356 posted on 2/20/02 3:55 AM Pacific by Romestamo
By the way, Gothmog was also the name of the chief Balrog. He was slain at the destruction of Gondolin by an Elf-lord, Ecthelion of the Fountain, who died in the fight. No wonder the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul liked the name!
Fellowship of the Ring
CHAPTER III
Three is Company
Hello to everyone who has joined us so far! And thanks to all the historians who provided all the background for Shadow of the Past. I know I certainly know a lot more than I did before!
In this chapter, Frodo knows now that the enemy Sauron has learned the ring was found. Frodo must leave the Shire. Gandalf sets out to seek advice from Saruman, the head of his order, but promises to return in time to accompany him on the road. They decide to head to Rivendell, but from there the road is unclear. Frodo sells Bag End and buys a house at Crickhollow in Buckland, and keeps secret his plans to leave the Shire for good. He does not even tell his close friends Merry and Pippin he has no intention of living at Crickhollow, only Sam. When Gandalf fails to return on schedule, the hobbits set out on their journey alone and guideless. They leave Hobbiton only barely in the nick of time. Mysterious black riders have entered the Shire, asking about a halfling named Baggins.
Excerpts from our chapter to get us going….
”You ought to go quietly, and you ought to go soon,” said Gandalf. Two or three weeks had passed, and still Frodo made no sign of getting ready to go……To tell the truth, he was very reluctant to start, now that it had come to the point. Bag End seemed a more desirable residence than it had for years, and he wanted to savour as much as he could of this last summer in the Shire. When autumn came, he knew that part at least of his heart would think more kindly of journeying, as it always did at that season. He had indeed privately made up his mind to leave on his fiftieth birthday… He thought as little as possible about the Ring, and where it might lead him in the end. But he did not tell all this thoughts to Gandalf. What the wizard guessed was always difficult to tell.
He looked at Frodo and smiled. “Very well,” he said. “I think that will do – but it must not be any later. I am getting very anxious. In the mean-while, do take care, and don’t let out any hint of where you are going! And see that Sam Gamgee does not talk. If he does, I really shall turn him into a toad.”
“As for where I am going,” said Frodo, “it would be difficult to give that away, for I have no clear idea myself, yet.”…..
Good Morning! - Movie Pictures – Chapter III
362 posted on 2/22/02 8:50 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Things I get out of this chapter:
Frodo does not think that he will return from this quest. "Bilbo went to find a treasure, there and back again; but I go to lose one, and not return, as far as I can see." Makes his heroism all the more so, I think. This theme is continued as they go; "I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again", Frodo thinks as he takes his last glance down at Hobbiton.
Selling Bag-End to the Sackville-Bagginses! How that must have hurt Frodo. I am glad they drank all the Old Winyards before leaving, though.
The Black Riders are scary. Part of it, I think is the way they're so slowly revealed. Frodo doesn't know what they are, and neither do we - we just know that we don't want Frodo to get caught, and we don't want him to wear the Ring either.
I like the Elf bits. We get some of those glimpses of legends and histories beyond the books - Elbereth, Finrod, the exiles. We also get an Elvish lesson - elen sila lumenn omentielvo - a star shines upon the hour of our meeting. Good to know how to greet an Elf! Of course, Gildor really helps out the hobbits, by sending news of their traveling to Rivendell. Otherwise they might not have had the help along the way.
I think we get some very good insights into the characters of Frodo, Sam, and Pippin. Sam's already devoted to Frodo. Pippin's light-hearted, perhaps too carefree for such a journey. He has some growing up to do! And Frodo loves the Shire very much. He's willing to give up anything to save it.
364 posted on 2/22/02 9:11 AM Pacific by JenB
I think Tolkien has given Frodo very mixed feelings... He doesn't really want to go, (but he wants to see Bilbo). He doesn't really understand the magnitude of the danger, (but he left on schedule anyway, even though Gandalf had not returned) Though he may speak of the danger, Frodo has nothing in his experience to tell him how afraid he should really be. Perhaps until the first rider is seen, and even then, he does not know enough to comprehend. They are having a nice pleasant walk so far, and only Frodo's quiet mumblings about not returning might betray his secret to the others.
And if Frodo does not understand the magnitude, how could Sam? - And Pippin, well, what does Pippin know? (snicker) He is just having a good time.
367 posted on 2/22/02 10:04 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Frodo has nothing in his experience to tell him how afraid he should really be.
In one statement, you have summed up the heart of these hobbits. They have never faced danger... They respond with the hearts of lions.
In this day and age of action heros who are never afraid, it is easy to believe that fear=weakness. But these hobbits are the bravest of the brave. Aragorn knows what hunts them... Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Merry continue to go forward even though there is nothing in their experience to tell them how to face the danger that will greet them with the dawn. And the danger never fades... it grows with each step of the journey they take.
368 posted on 2/22/02 10:11 AM Pacific by carton253
He turned to go back, and then stopped, for he heard voices, just round the corner by the end of Bagshot Row. One voice was certainly the ol Gaffer's; the other was strange, and somehow unpleasant..."And the chase begins.
You hold your breath as they fly from danger to danger just in this chapter.
But thankfully, the encounter with Gildor and the Elves is a welcome respite. And bless Sam, he's just giddy with delight at meeting Elves.
Can you imagine what Frodo must have felt when Gildor greeted him by name?
"Hail, Frodo!" he cried. "You are abroad late. Or are you perhaps lost?"Lotsa irony there.
369 posted on 2/22/02 10:17 AM Pacific by Carolina
Tolkien has given us only a little foreshadowing when Frodo overhears the conversation with a "strange" sounding person and the Gaffer before they left. Sam has said nothing about that, though he knows of it, it has slipped his mind. (another clue about Sam's understanding of their situation)
And Tolkien leaves us with the same naivety that Frodo has when the first rider appears.
"I can hear a pony or a horse coming along the road behind," said Sam.They looked back, but the turn of the road prevented them from seeing far. "I wonder if that is Gandalf coming after us," said Frodo; but even as he said it, he had a feeling that it was not so, and a sudden desire to hide from the view of the rider came over him.
It may not matter much," he said apologetically, "but I would rather not be seen on the road - by anyone. I am sick of my doings being noticed and discussed. And if it is Gandalf," he added as an afterthought, "we can bive him a little surprise, to pay him out for being so late. Lets get out of sight!"
Now Frodo passes this off as a simple desire to avoid the gossips, but I think he has just had his first experience with the screaming willies. He understates his fear it to his friends, and maybe to himself, but his instincts have just kicked in.
And the "ring as a character" makes it's first move (or one of the first) here. "curiousity or some other feeling was struggling with his desire to hide"... "A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breath, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he had only to slip it on, and he would be safe."
370 posted on 2/22/02 10:32 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Tolkien leaves a lot to the imagination doesn't he... the elves, and Gandalf, appear to send and receive "news" in mysterious ways.... Gandalf had heard some "news" before he left, and we certainly do not assume he heard it at the Green Dragon (second gratuitous plug). And the elves, part of their intriguing mystery is revealed... They know Frodo, they have seen him lots of times out walking with Bilbo... and yet... Hobbits have never seen them. They are very much like angels so far.... especially their timing when they arrive in our story.
371 posted on 2/22/02 10:41 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
They are very much like angels so far.... especially their timing when they arrive in our story.
"The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth. Our paths cross theirs seldom, by chance or purpose. In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much"Forces for Good are on the move also! With Gildor alerting The Wandering Companies, it's good to know that our hobbit friends are not alone.
You don't think Gandalf got his "news" at the Ivy Bush, do you?
372 posted on 2/22/02 11:02 AM Pacific by Overtaxed
What about the sniffing?... I am sure it is important". Pippin (OK, so it's in the next chapter, but not very far in)
I recall thinking when I read this early on, that we are given clues, but not told outright (yet), that the Ringwraiths cannot see, really. We are shown that they seem to sniff and listen. As evil as they are, they are not particularly great as hunters... as Frodo and company are able to elude them without much skill or experience in this area.
Of course, There were "forces of good" protecting them, not the least of which was Tolkien himself. Tolkien knew he was just beginning what he expected to be a long story, so he had to make them escape! ...but beyond that, the riders are drawn to be blinded phantoms, drawn by an inner force toward the ring, but not designed to confront the real world head on - at least yet. Maybe they are as yet uncertain, but there is a lot left up to us to decide at this point.
379 posted on 2/22/02 12:11 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I advise Hobbits to avoid encounters with Black Riders. A lot of good that does, with neither Hobbits nor black riders much around these parts.
I thought the movie did a good job with the 'sniffing' bits. And those horses - I mean, talk about demonic beasts! You know Jackson did a good job when you're scared of the Nazgul's horses.
I wonder why Elves don't like giving advice, or rather 'say both yes and no'? Because they have so much experience they can sort of see both sides of a thing? Or because they haven't got a clue and are trying to bluff? You'd think they'd be, I don't know, less oracular and more "Those Black Riders are really scary and bad and if they catch you, Middle-Earth is doomed." Then again, I suppose the point was to get Frodo on his way without making him scared to move. I have a feeling that if I saw a Nazgul, I'd run away screaming, or just stand rooted to the spot in terror.
384 posted on 2/22/02 12:48 PM Pacific by JenB
I thought the movie did a good job with the 'sniffing' bits.
I completely missed the sniffing bit in the movie (does that mean I have to go see it again?) In the book it brought that fact to mind when the Rider dismounts and sniffs. (If the horses can see and the Riders are blind, why does the Rider lead the horse?)
I guess Gildor is trying not to scare the bejeepers out of Frodo. But then Frodo doesn't need any Elf to tell him they're bad.
385 posted on 2/22/02 1:24 PM Pacific by Overtaxed
Okay, Jen. How 'bout some Middle Earth Astronomy.
Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he lcimbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. The Elves all burst into song.Anyone bring food for our stargazing?
392 posted on 2/22/02 2:00 PM Pacific by Carolina
Help me with the Tolkien tradition of giving four names to everything. The black riders, as called by the hobbits, are properly called both Ringwraiths and Nazgul. Are these terms interchangeable? Is Ringwraith simply a translation of Nazgul in the common tougue?
The reason I ask is that the word Nazgul in my memory is not used until quite later in the story... In fact, I correlate Nazgul to the context of the winged creatures they later ride.
396 posted on 2/22/02 2:08 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Menelvagor = Orion, I know that. Also called Menelmacar (menel is a root meaning heavens). This was one of the constellations created by Varda to celebrate the awakening of the Elves. According to Silm., Menelvagor 'forebodes the last battle that shall be at the end of days' and 'when first Menelmacar strode up the sky... in that hour the Children of Earth awoke' (Of the Coming of the Elves).
Incidentally the constellation we know as the Big Dipper or Plough (if you're British) was called Valacirca by the Elves, the Sickle of the Valar and was a challenge to Morgoth.
Borgil I can't find referenced. The word 'gil' means star in Sindarin. 'Bor' I can find no reference to, other than a series of minor chieftains bearing names with 'bor' in them. From context I'd wager that Borgil is the planet Mars.
Remmirath - no clue. Your guess is as good as mine, maybe better as my knowledge of astronomy is very weak.
399 posted on 2/22/02 2:12 PM Pacific by JenB
"perhaps some of them are gluttons, but not many"
To carry the comparison to humans a little furthur, if we really think about it much of our life is spent acquirng, preparing and eating food and it is certainly at the center of our celebrations and most of our wonderful memories, so this is a hobbit quality we can very much relate to and the fact they are so taken with food in a sense accentuates their goodness because we ourselves relate food to good things and their normal eating frequency is virtually double what would be considered normal for a human making it very easy for us to see them as very happy and carefree creatures indeed.
431 posted on 2/22/02 3:17 PM Pacific by sweetliberty
Gandalf had curiousity about this ring and how Bilbo could have found such a thing, maybe, I don't recall anything about it from The Hobbit. But he really did not ever suspect it was the "one ring" until it demonstrated such a profound impact on Bilbo... Bilbo's behavior after the party, combined with his apparent lack of any signs of aging, caused him to wonder.
He began to research it more closely then, like in the movie, when he says there are "questions that need answering". What is easy to miss in the movie, is that it took him 17 years to be sure of the answer, at least sure enough to know the test of fire would answer it for good. He and Aragorn and others tracked Gollum down in that time as well, and tried to dsicover more about how he could have found and kept such a thing. That we do not learn until he gets back...
450 posted on 2/22/02 5:41 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Did anyone who has heard the elves speak in their own language and who has also heard regular mortals speak in tongues (Christian faith) draw any comparisons to the spirit behind what they were hearing in the movie and the Spirit behind speaking in tongues? I am not addressing the fact that elvish is a foreign language, but the effect of hearing the elvish tongue spoken, and the feeling it gave (or may not have given).
I was awestruck by it and so was my movie companion. I felt a tremendous peace every time I heard the elves speak their language. It had a very clean and wonderful sound to me. Anyone else notice anything about this?
453 posted on 2/22/02 9:32 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
nor would I be surprised if they possess some more telepathic ways of communicating
Remember how Galadriel communicated with several members of the Fellowship, without words? I haven't gotten that far in the book yet, but if the book and movie jibe, then the elves do have powers of communicating beyond regular conversation.
455 posted on 2/22/02 9:40 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
I wonder why Elves don't like giving advice, or rather 'say both yes and no'? Because they have so much experience they can sort of see both sides of a thing? Or because they haven't got a clue and are trying to bluff?
At least for FotR, it serves Tolkien's purposes to have them stand in this place of seeming to hold two opinions equally without driving others to believe either, as a vehicle to allow Frodo to make up his own mind to take the ring to its destruction. Frodo's personal commitment to this was essential to his success -- if he were to succeed. The elves knew that if Frodo went because someone told him he had to, he would be far less committed to it, far more likely to back off the mission when the going got tough. Tolkien may have had other reasons also, such as you mention. It seems probable.
456 posted on 2/22/02 9:48 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
The Wizards (or Istari) are Maiar, powerful spirit beings who came to Middle-Earth in the physical form of old men in the Third Age. There were 5, of which only 3 come into play in this story: Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast. Their job was to assist the free peoples in their struggles against Sauron, who was also a Maia.
467 posted on 2/23/02 9:20 AM Pacific by ecurbh
Maybe this chapter should be called "Of Elves and Wizards." :)
This is the first time in LOTR that we actually get to see and hear Elves. The one thing that struck me is how they can be so serious yet laugh so much. (If you would pardon another comparison to the movie, I missed the Elf laughter in the movie.)
Another thing is that the Elves are not control freaks. You'd think that Gildor would offer to escort Frodo to Rivendell after he found him being chased by Riders with Gandalf missing.
476 posted on 2/24/02 7:34 AM Pacific by Overtaxed
The elves have done quite enough in the First Age and the Second Age and now it's time for men (and Hobbits) to take charge. Even Gandalf doesn't step in and take over - when he could. But they do help in their own way. The "non-interference" way, but still...
483 posted on 2/24/02 1:09 PM Pacific by NewCenturions
The Elves in the third Age were not what they were in the Fist and Second Age. Many of their greatest heroes (Feanor, Gil-galad, etc.) were dead. It was difficult to raise the same great armies as they had used to. The Elves knew their time was going to be over, and looked to Men to save Middle-Earth. The Elves were more in an advisory position by the time of the War of the Ring. In the Second Age an army that was composed of elves and men could lay siege to Barad-Dur for seven years. By the Third Age, the elves were on the defensive, defending their kingdoms in Lorien and Mirkwood.
488 posted on 2/24/02 2:53 PM Pacific by koba
How much do you think the elves put together about the black riders and Gandalf and the ring? I don't have the book in front of me, and now I can't remember, but were they sure the black riders were actually after the hobbits? I remember I was discussing the movie with someone and they mentioned how the nazgûl could sense the presence of the ring, but they didn't necessarily figure out who was actually carrying it. Perhaps the elves just thought the black riders were snooping around the Shire, but not necessarily after the hobbits.
How sure was Frodo and his buddies that the riders were actually looking for them?
I always fall into the trap, in reading the book as well as when watching the movie, of thinking that the Nazgûl are after Frodo. They are, but they don't necessarily know that it's Frodo they're actually after until (Book/movie SPOILER, highlight to read): Frodo pulls the ring out at Weathertop and they "see" it and him. I noticed that in particular in the movie, that the Nazgûl didn't really focus in fully on Frodo until he'd pulled the ring out of his pocket.
515 posted on 2/25/02 7:42 PM Pacific by Penny1
Well, Frodo was able to sense that they are after him:
"I can’t say why, but I felt certain he was looking or smelling for me; and also I felt certain that I did not want him to discover me."And remember, he was warned by Gandalf in the previous chapter that the enemy learned from Gollum that the ring was taken from him by a hobbit of the Shire, so I think Frodo is beginning to put two and two together. I am not sure what Gildor knows about the ring, but he does know about the Black Riders:
"Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?" answered Gildor. "Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you!"
517 posted on 2/25/02 9:40 PM Pacific by ecurbh
***Tangent/movie spoilers warning***
You know, that line was really interesting. It seems to me movie-Elrond was not seeing the reality that the ring would have corrupted anyone...even an elf. If even Gandalf is unable to bear the ring, then why would Elrond not get the picture that no one was immune to its corrupting power?
I still think the attitude movie-Elrond had has to do with the fact that Isildur and his heirs are in fact his kin. They may have chosen to be men rather than elves, but they are still descendants of his brother....whose name escapes me at the moment. I think PJ may have chosen to incorporate a bit of family issues into the Elrond/men/Aragorn/Isildur dynamic.
The other thing I've been wondering is if Elrond blamed himself for not making Isildur throw the ring into the fire--from the scene they showed, Isildur wasn't even wearing it. If Elrond had recognized the danger of the ring himself, he should have found a way to take the ring from Isildur, no matter the consequences to the guy. I wonder if his vehemence at blaming "men" was at least in part a deflection of his own guilt.
Okay, I'm heading off to Took corner now, lol...is it too early for a pint?
Fellowship of the Ring
CHAPTER III
Three is Company
Hello to everyone who has joined us so far! And thanks to all the historians who provided all the background for Shadow of the Past. I know I certainly know a lot more than I did before!
In this chapter, Frodo knows now that the enemy Sauron has learned the ring was found. Frodo must leave the Shire. Gandalf sets out to seek advice from Saruman, the head of his order, but promises to return in time to accompany him on the road. They decide to head to Rivendell, but from there the road is unclear. Frodo sells Bag End and buys a house at Crickhollow in Buckland, and keeps secret his plans to leave the Shire for good. He does not even tell his close friends Merry and Pippin he has no intention of living at Crickhollow, only Sam. When Gandalf fails to return on schedule, the hobbits set out on their journey alone and guideless. They leave Hobbiton only barely in the nick of time. Mysterious black riders have entered the Shire, asking about a halfling named Baggins.
Excerpts from our chapter to get us going….
”You ought to go quietly, and you ought to go soon,” said Gandalf. Two or three weeks had passed, and still Frodo made no sign of getting ready to go……To tell the truth, he was very reluctant to start, now that it had come to the point. Bag End seemed a more desirable residence than it had for years, and he wanted to savour as much as he could of this last summer in the Shire. When autumn came, he knew that part at least of his heart would think more kindly of journeying, as it always did at that season. He had indeed privately made up his mind to leave on his fiftieth birthday… He thought as little as possible about the Ring, and where it might lead him in the end. But he did not tell all this thoughts to Gandalf. What the wizard guessed was always difficult to tell.
He looked at Frodo and smiled. “Very well,” he said. “I think that will do – but it must not be any later. I am getting very anxious. In the mean-while, do take care, and don’t let out any hint of where you are going! And see that Sam Gamgee does not talk. If he does, I really shall turn him into a toad.”
“As for where I am going,” said Frodo, “it would be difficult to give that away, for I have no clear idea myself, yet.”…..
Good Morning! - Movie Pictures – Chapter III
362 posted on 2/22/02 8:50 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Things I get out of this chapter:
Frodo does not think that he will return from this quest. "Bilbo went to find a treasure, there and back again; but I go to lose one, and not return, as far as I can see." Makes his heroism all the more so, I think. This theme is continued as they go; "I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again", Frodo thinks as he takes his last glance down at Hobbiton.
Selling Bag-End to the Sackville-Bagginses! How that must have hurt Frodo. I am glad they drank all the Old Winyards before leaving, though.
The Black Riders are scary. Part of it, I think is the way they're so slowly revealed. Frodo doesn't know what they are, and neither do we - we just know that we don't want Frodo to get caught, and we don't want him to wear the Ring either.
I like the Elf bits. We get some of those glimpses of legends and histories beyond the books - Elbereth, Finrod, the exiles. We also get an Elvish lesson - elen sila lumenn omentielvo - a star shines upon the hour of our meeting. Good to know how to greet an Elf! Of course, Gildor really helps out the hobbits, by sending news of their traveling to Rivendell. Otherwise they might not have had the help along the way.
I think we get some very good insights into the characters of Frodo, Sam, and Pippin. Sam's already devoted to Frodo. Pippin's light-hearted, perhaps too carefree for such a journey. He has some growing up to do! And Frodo loves the Shire very much. He's willing to give up anything to save it.
364 posted on 2/22/02 9:11 AM Pacific by JenB
I think Tolkien has given Frodo very mixed feelings... He doesn't really want to go, (but he wants to see Bilbo). He doesn't really understand the magnitude of the danger, (but he left on schedule anyway, even though Gandalf had not returned) Though he may speak of the danger, Frodo has nothing in his experience to tell him how afraid he should really be. Perhaps until the first rider is seen, and even then, he does not know enough to comprehend. They are having a nice pleasant walk so far, and only Frodo's quiet mumblings about not returning might betray his secret to the others.
And if Frodo does not understand the magnitude, how could Sam? - And Pippin, well, what does Pippin know? (snicker) He is just having a good time.
367 posted on 2/22/02 10:04 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Frodo has nothing in his experience to tell him how afraid he should really be.
In one statement, you have summed up the heart of these hobbits. They have never faced danger... They respond with the hearts of lions.
In this day and age of action heros who are never afraid, it is easy to believe that fear=weakness. But these hobbits are the bravest of the brave. Aragorn knows what hunts them... Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Merry continue to go forward even though there is nothing in their experience to tell them how to face the danger that will greet them with the dawn. And the danger never fades... it grows with each step of the journey they take.
368 posted on 2/22/02 10:11 AM Pacific by carton253
He turned to go back, and then stopped, for he heard voices, just round the corner by the end of Bagshot Row. One voice was certainly the ol Gaffer's; the other was strange, and somehow unpleasant..."And the chase begins.
You hold your breath as they fly from danger to danger just in this chapter.
But thankfully, the encounter with Gildor and the Elves is a welcome respite. And bless Sam, he's just giddy with delight at meeting Elves.
Can you imagine what Frodo must have felt when Gildor greeted him by name?
"Hail, Frodo!" he cried. "You are abroad late. Or are you perhaps lost?"Lotsa irony there.
369 posted on 2/22/02 10:17 AM Pacific by Carolina
Tolkien has given us only a little foreshadowing when Frodo overhears the conversation with a "strange" sounding person and the Gaffer before they left. Sam has said nothing about that, though he knows of it, it has slipped his mind. (another clue about Sam's understanding of their situation)
And Tolkien leaves us with the same naivety that Frodo has when the first rider appears.
"I can hear a pony or a horse coming along the road behind," said Sam.They looked back, but the turn of the road prevented them from seeing far. "I wonder if that is Gandalf coming after us," said Frodo; but even as he said it, he had a feeling that it was not so, and a sudden desire to hide from the view of the rider came over him.
It may not matter much," he said apologetically, "but I would rather not be seen on the road - by anyone. I am sick of my doings being noticed and discussed. And if it is Gandalf," he added as an afterthought, "we can bive him a little surprise, to pay him out for being so late. Lets get out of sight!"
Now Frodo passes this off as a simple desire to avoid the gossips, but I think he has just had his first experience with the screaming willies. He understates his fear it to his friends, and maybe to himself, but his instincts have just kicked in.
And the "ring as a character" makes it's first move (or one of the first) here. "curiousity or some other feeling was struggling with his desire to hide"... "A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breath, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he had only to slip it on, and he would be safe."
370 posted on 2/22/02 10:32 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Tolkien leaves a lot to the imagination doesn't he... the elves, and Gandalf, appear to send and receive "news" in mysterious ways.... Gandalf had heard some "news" before he left, and we certainly do not assume he heard it at the Green Dragon (second gratuitous plug). And the elves, part of their intriguing mystery is revealed... They know Frodo, they have seen him lots of times out walking with Bilbo... and yet... Hobbits have never seen them. They are very much like angels so far.... especially their timing when they arrive in our story.
371 posted on 2/22/02 10:41 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
They are very much like angels so far.... especially their timing when they arrive in our story.
"The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth. Our paths cross theirs seldom, by chance or purpose. In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much"Forces for Good are on the move also! With Gildor alerting The Wandering Companies, it's good to know that our hobbit friends are not alone.
You don't think Gandalf got his "news" at the Ivy Bush, do you?
372 posted on 2/22/02 11:02 AM Pacific by Overtaxed
What about the sniffing?... I am sure it is important". Pippin (OK, so it's in the next chapter, but not very far in)
I recall thinking when I read this early on, that we are given clues, but not told outright (yet), that the Ringwraiths cannot see, really. We are shown that they seem to sniff and listen. As evil as they are, they are not particularly great as hunters... as Frodo and company are able to elude them without much skill or experience in this area.
Of course, There were "forces of good" protecting them, not the least of which was Tolkien himself. Tolkien knew he was just beginning what he expected to be a long story, so he had to make them escape! ...but beyond that, the riders are drawn to be blinded phantoms, drawn by an inner force toward the ring, but not designed to confront the real world head on - at least yet. Maybe they are as yet uncertain, but there is a lot left up to us to decide at this point.
379 posted on 2/22/02 12:11 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I advise Hobbits to avoid encounters with Black Riders. A lot of good that does, with neither Hobbits nor black riders much around these parts.
I thought the movie did a good job with the 'sniffing' bits. And those horses - I mean, talk about demonic beasts! You know Jackson did a good job when you're scared of the Nazgul's horses.
I wonder why Elves don't like giving advice, or rather 'say both yes and no'? Because they have so much experience they can sort of see both sides of a thing? Or because they haven't got a clue and are trying to bluff? You'd think they'd be, I don't know, less oracular and more "Those Black Riders are really scary and bad and if they catch you, Middle-Earth is doomed." Then again, I suppose the point was to get Frodo on his way without making him scared to move. I have a feeling that if I saw a Nazgul, I'd run away screaming, or just stand rooted to the spot in terror.
384 posted on 2/22/02 12:48 PM Pacific by JenB
I thought the movie did a good job with the 'sniffing' bits.
I completely missed the sniffing bit in the movie (does that mean I have to go see it again?) In the book it brought that fact to mind when the Rider dismounts and sniffs. (If the horses can see and the Riders are blind, why does the Rider lead the horse?)
I guess Gildor is trying not to scare the bejeepers out of Frodo. But then Frodo doesn't need any Elf to tell him they're bad.
385 posted on 2/22/02 1:24 PM Pacific by Overtaxed
Okay, Jen. How 'bout some Middle Earth Astronomy.
Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he lcimbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. The Elves all burst into song.Anyone bring food for our stargazing?
392 posted on 2/22/02 2:00 PM Pacific by Carolina
Help me with the Tolkien tradition of giving four names to everything. The black riders, as called by the hobbits, are properly called both Ringwraiths and Nazgul. Are these terms interchangeable? Is Ringwraith simply a translation of Nazgul in the common tougue?
The reason I ask is that the word Nazgul in my memory is not used until quite later in the story... In fact, I correlate Nazgul to the context of the winged creatures they later ride.
396 posted on 2/22/02 2:08 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Menelvagor = Orion, I know that. Also called Menelmacar (menel is a root meaning heavens). This was one of the constellations created by Varda to celebrate the awakening of the Elves. According to Silm., Menelvagor 'forebodes the last battle that shall be at the end of days' and 'when first Menelmacar strode up the sky... in that hour the Children of Earth awoke' (Of the Coming of the Elves).
Incidentally the constellation we know as the Big Dipper or Plough (if you're British) was called Valacirca by the Elves, the Sickle of the Valar and was a challenge to Morgoth.
Borgil I can't find referenced. The word 'gil' means star in Sindarin. 'Bor' I can find no reference to, other than a series of minor chieftains bearing names with 'bor' in them. From context I'd wager that Borgil is the planet Mars.
Remmirath - no clue. Your guess is as good as mine, maybe better as my knowledge of astronomy is very weak.
399 posted on 2/22/02 2:12 PM Pacific by JenB
"perhaps some of them are gluttons, but not many"
To carry the comparison to humans a little furthur, if we really think about it much of our life is spent acquirng, preparing and eating food and it is certainly at the center of our celebrations and most of our wonderful memories, so this is a hobbit quality we can very much relate to and the fact they are so taken with food in a sense accentuates their goodness because we ourselves relate food to good things and their normal eating frequency is virtually double what would be considered normal for a human making it very easy for us to see them as very happy and carefree creatures indeed.
431 posted on 2/22/02 3:17 PM Pacific by sweetliberty
Gandalf had curiousity about this ring and how Bilbo could have found such a thing, maybe, I don't recall anything about it from The Hobbit. But he really did not ever suspect it was the "one ring" until it demonstrated such a profound impact on Bilbo... Bilbo's behavior after the party, combined with his apparent lack of any signs of aging, caused him to wonder.
He began to research it more closely then, like in the movie, when he says there are "questions that need answering". What is easy to miss in the movie, is that it took him 17 years to be sure of the answer, at least sure enough to know the test of fire would answer it for good. He and Aragorn and others tracked Gollum down in that time as well, and tried to dsicover more about how he could have found and kept such a thing. That we do not learn until he gets back...
450 posted on 2/22/02 5:41 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Did anyone who has heard the elves speak in their own language and who has also heard regular mortals speak in tongues (Christian faith) draw any comparisons to the spirit behind what they were hearing in the movie and the Spirit behind speaking in tongues? I am not addressing the fact that elvish is a foreign language, but the effect of hearing the elvish tongue spoken, and the feeling it gave (or may not have given).
I was awestruck by it and so was my movie companion. I felt a tremendous peace every time I heard the elves speak their language. It had a very clean and wonderful sound to me. Anyone else notice anything about this?
453 posted on 2/22/02 9:32 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
nor would I be surprised if they possess some more telepathic ways of communicating
Remember how Galadriel communicated with several members of the Fellowship, without words? I haven't gotten that far in the book yet, but if the book and movie jibe, then the elves do have powers of communicating beyond regular conversation.
455 posted on 2/22/02 9:40 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
I wonder why Elves don't like giving advice, or rather 'say both yes and no'? Because they have so much experience they can sort of see both sides of a thing? Or because they haven't got a clue and are trying to bluff?
At least for FotR, it serves Tolkien's purposes to have them stand in this place of seeming to hold two opinions equally without driving others to believe either, as a vehicle to allow Frodo to make up his own mind to take the ring to its destruction. Frodo's personal commitment to this was essential to his success -- if he were to succeed. The elves knew that if Frodo went because someone told him he had to, he would be far less committed to it, far more likely to back off the mission when the going got tough. Tolkien may have had other reasons also, such as you mention. It seems probable.
456 posted on 2/22/02 9:48 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
The Wizards (or Istari) are Maiar, powerful spirit beings who came to Middle-Earth in the physical form of old men in the Third Age. There were 5, of which only 3 come into play in this story: Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast. Their job was to assist the free peoples in their struggles against Sauron, who was also a Maia.
467 posted on 2/23/02 9:20 AM Pacific by ecurbh
Maybe this chapter should be called "Of Elves and Wizards." :)
This is the first time in LOTR that we actually get to see and hear Elves. The one thing that struck me is how they can be so serious yet laugh so much. (If you would pardon another comparison to the movie, I missed the Elf laughter in the movie.)
Another thing is that the Elves are not control freaks. You'd think that Gildor would offer to escort Frodo to Rivendell after he found him being chased by Riders with Gandalf missing.
476 posted on 2/24/02 7:34 AM Pacific by Overtaxed
The elves have done quite enough in the First Age and the Second Age and now it's time for men (and Hobbits) to take charge. Even Gandalf doesn't step in and take over - when he could. But they do help in their own way. The "non-interference" way, but still...
483 posted on 2/24/02 1:09 PM Pacific by NewCenturions
The Elves in the third Age were not what they were in the Fist and Second Age. Many of their greatest heroes (Feanor, Gil-galad, etc.) were dead. It was difficult to raise the same great armies as they had used to. The Elves knew their time was going to be over, and looked to Men to save Middle-Earth. The Elves were more in an advisory position by the time of the War of the Ring. In the Second Age an army that was composed of elves and men could lay siege to Barad-Dur for seven years. By the Third Age, the elves were on the defensive, defending their kingdoms in Lorien and Mirkwood.
488 posted on 2/24/02 2:53 PM Pacific by koba
How much do you think the elves put together about the black riders and Gandalf and the ring? I don't have the book in front of me, and now I can't remember, but were they sure the black riders were actually after the hobbits? I remember I was discussing the movie with someone and they mentioned how the nazgûl could sense the presence of the ring, but they didn't necessarily figure out who was actually carrying it. Perhaps the elves just thought the black riders were snooping around the Shire, but not necessarily after the hobbits.
How sure was Frodo and his buddies that the riders were actually looking for them?
I always fall into the trap, in reading the book as well as when watching the movie, of thinking that the Nazgûl are after Frodo. They are, but they don't necessarily know that it's Frodo they're actually after until (Book/movie SPOILER, highlight to read): Frodo pulls the ring out at Weathertop and they "see" it and him. I noticed that in particular in the movie, that the Nazgûl didn't really focus in fully on Frodo until he'd pulled the ring out of his pocket.
515 posted on 2/25/02 7:42 PM Pacific by Penny1
Well, Frodo was able to sense that they are after him:
"I can’t say why, but I felt certain he was looking or smelling for me; and also I felt certain that I did not want him to discover me."And remember, he was warned by Gandalf in the previous chapter that the enemy learned from Gollum that the ring was taken from him by a hobbit of the Shire, so I think Frodo is beginning to put two and two together. I am not sure what Gildor knows about the ring, but he does know about the Black Riders:
"Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?" answered Gildor. "Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you!"
517 posted on 2/25/02 9:40 PM Pacific by ecurbh
***Tangent/movie spoilers warning***
You know, that line was really interesting. It seems to me movie-Elrond was not seeing the reality that the ring would have corrupted anyone...even an elf. If even Gandalf is unable to bear the ring, then why would Elrond not get the picture that no one was immune to its corrupting power?
I still think the attitude movie-Elrond had has to do with the fact that Isildur and his heirs are in fact his kin. They may have chosen to be men rather than elves, but they are still descendants of his brother....whose name escapes me at the moment. I think PJ may have chosen to incorporate a bit of family issues into the Elrond/men/Aragorn/Isildur dynamic.
The other thing I've been wondering is if Elrond blamed himself for not making Isildur throw the ring into the fire--from the scene they showed, Isildur wasn't even wearing it. If Elrond had recognized the danger of the ring himself, he should have found a way to take the ring from Isildur, no matter the consequences to the guy. I wonder if his vehemence at blaming "men" was at least in part a deflection of his own guilt.
Okay, I'm heading off to Took corner now, lol...is it too early for a pint?
Putting the instrument of power in the hands of the one(s) who don't want it and won't use it on others is a very conservative concept.