Fellowship of the Ring
CHAPTER III
Three is Company
Hello to everyone who has joined us so far! And thanks to all the historians who provided all the background for Shadow of the Past. I know I certainly know a lot more than I did before!
In this chapter, Frodo knows now that the enemy Sauron has learned the ring was found. Frodo must leave the Shire. Gandalf sets out to seek advice from Saruman, the head of his order, but promises to return in time to accompany him on the road. They decide to head to Rivendell, but from there the road is unclear. Frodo sells Bag End and buys a house at Crickhollow in Buckland, and keeps secret his plans to leave the Shire for good. He does not even tell his close friends Merry and Pippin he has no intention of living at Crickhollow, only Sam. When Gandalf fails to return on schedule, the hobbits set out on their journey alone and guideless. They leave Hobbiton only barely in the nick of time. Mysterious black riders have entered the Shire, asking about a halfling named Baggins.
Excerpts from our chapter to get us going….
”You ought to go quietly, and you ought to go soon,” said Gandalf. Two or three weeks had passed, and still Frodo made no sign of getting ready to go……To tell the truth, he was very reluctant to start, now that it had come to the point. Bag End seemed a more desirable residence than it had for years, and he wanted to savour as much as he could of this last summer in the Shire. When autumn came, he knew that part at least of his heart would think more kindly of journeying, as it always did at that season. He had indeed privately made up his mind to leave on his fiftieth birthday… He thought as little as possible about the Ring, and where it might lead him in the end. But he did not tell all this thoughts to Gandalf. What the wizard guessed was always difficult to tell.
He looked at Frodo and smiled. “Very well,” he said. “I think that will do – but it must not be any later. I am getting very anxious. In the mean-while, do take care, and don’t let out any hint of where you are going! And see that Sam Gamgee does not talk. If he does, I really shall turn him into a toad.”
“As for where I am going,” said Frodo, “it would be difficult to give that away, for I have no clear idea myself, yet.”…..
Good Morning! - Movie Pictures – Chapter III
362 posted on 2/22/02 8:50 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Things I get out of this chapter:
Frodo does not think that he will return from this quest. "Bilbo went to find a treasure, there and back again; but I go to lose one, and not return, as far as I can see." Makes his heroism all the more so, I think. This theme is continued as they go; "I wonder if I shall ever look down into that valley again", Frodo thinks as he takes his last glance down at Hobbiton.
Selling Bag-End to the Sackville-Bagginses! How that must have hurt Frodo. I am glad they drank all the Old Winyards before leaving, though.
The Black Riders are scary. Part of it, I think is the way they're so slowly revealed. Frodo doesn't know what they are, and neither do we - we just know that we don't want Frodo to get caught, and we don't want him to wear the Ring either.
I like the Elf bits. We get some of those glimpses of legends and histories beyond the books - Elbereth, Finrod, the exiles. We also get an Elvish lesson - elen sila lumenn omentielvo - a star shines upon the hour of our meeting. Good to know how to greet an Elf! Of course, Gildor really helps out the hobbits, by sending news of their traveling to Rivendell. Otherwise they might not have had the help along the way.
I think we get some very good insights into the characters of Frodo, Sam, and Pippin. Sam's already devoted to Frodo. Pippin's light-hearted, perhaps too carefree for such a journey. He has some growing up to do! And Frodo loves the Shire very much. He's willing to give up anything to save it.
364 posted on 2/22/02 9:11 AM Pacific by JenB
I think Tolkien has given Frodo very mixed feelings... He doesn't really want to go, (but he wants to see Bilbo). He doesn't really understand the magnitude of the danger, (but he left on schedule anyway, even though Gandalf had not returned) Though he may speak of the danger, Frodo has nothing in his experience to tell him how afraid he should really be. Perhaps until the first rider is seen, and even then, he does not know enough to comprehend. They are having a nice pleasant walk so far, and only Frodo's quiet mumblings about not returning might betray his secret to the others.
And if Frodo does not understand the magnitude, how could Sam? - And Pippin, well, what does Pippin know? (snicker) He is just having a good time.
367 posted on 2/22/02 10:04 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Frodo has nothing in his experience to tell him how afraid he should really be.
In one statement, you have summed up the heart of these hobbits. They have never faced danger... They respond with the hearts of lions.
In this day and age of action heros who are never afraid, it is easy to believe that fear=weakness. But these hobbits are the bravest of the brave. Aragorn knows what hunts them... Frodo, Sam, Pippin, and Merry continue to go forward even though there is nothing in their experience to tell them how to face the danger that will greet them with the dawn. And the danger never fades... it grows with each step of the journey they take.
368 posted on 2/22/02 10:11 AM Pacific by carton253
He turned to go back, and then stopped, for he heard voices, just round the corner by the end of Bagshot Row. One voice was certainly the ol Gaffer's; the other was strange, and somehow unpleasant..."And the chase begins.
You hold your breath as they fly from danger to danger just in this chapter.
But thankfully, the encounter with Gildor and the Elves is a welcome respite. And bless Sam, he's just giddy with delight at meeting Elves.
Can you imagine what Frodo must have felt when Gildor greeted him by name?
"Hail, Frodo!" he cried. "You are abroad late. Or are you perhaps lost?"Lotsa irony there.
369 posted on 2/22/02 10:17 AM Pacific by Carolina
Tolkien has given us only a little foreshadowing when Frodo overhears the conversation with a "strange" sounding person and the Gaffer before they left. Sam has said nothing about that, though he knows of it, it has slipped his mind. (another clue about Sam's understanding of their situation)
And Tolkien leaves us with the same naivety that Frodo has when the first rider appears.
"I can hear a pony or a horse coming along the road behind," said Sam.They looked back, but the turn of the road prevented them from seeing far. "I wonder if that is Gandalf coming after us," said Frodo; but even as he said it, he had a feeling that it was not so, and a sudden desire to hide from the view of the rider came over him.
It may not matter much," he said apologetically, "but I would rather not be seen on the road - by anyone. I am sick of my doings being noticed and discussed. And if it is Gandalf," he added as an afterthought, "we can bive him a little surprise, to pay him out for being so late. Lets get out of sight!"
Now Frodo passes this off as a simple desire to avoid the gossips, but I think he has just had his first experience with the screaming willies. He understates his fear it to his friends, and maybe to himself, but his instincts have just kicked in.
And the "ring as a character" makes it's first move (or one of the first) here. "curiousity or some other feeling was struggling with his desire to hide"... "A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breath, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he had only to slip it on, and he would be safe."
370 posted on 2/22/02 10:32 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Tolkien leaves a lot to the imagination doesn't he... the elves, and Gandalf, appear to send and receive "news" in mysterious ways.... Gandalf had heard some "news" before he left, and we certainly do not assume he heard it at the Green Dragon (second gratuitous plug). And the elves, part of their intriguing mystery is revealed... They know Frodo, they have seen him lots of times out walking with Bilbo... and yet... Hobbits have never seen them. They are very much like angels so far.... especially their timing when they arrive in our story.
371 posted on 2/22/02 10:41 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
They are very much like angels so far.... especially their timing when they arrive in our story.
"The Elves have their own labours and their own sorrows, and they are little concerned with the ways of hobbits, or of any other creatures upon earth. Our paths cross theirs seldom, by chance or purpose. In this meeting there may be more than chance; but the purpose is not clear to me, and I fear to say too much"Forces for Good are on the move also! With Gildor alerting The Wandering Companies, it's good to know that our hobbit friends are not alone.
You don't think Gandalf got his "news" at the Ivy Bush, do you?
372 posted on 2/22/02 11:02 AM Pacific by Overtaxed
What about the sniffing?... I am sure it is important". Pippin (OK, so it's in the next chapter, but not very far in)
I recall thinking when I read this early on, that we are given clues, but not told outright (yet), that the Ringwraiths cannot see, really. We are shown that they seem to sniff and listen. As evil as they are, they are not particularly great as hunters... as Frodo and company are able to elude them without much skill or experience in this area.
Of course, There were "forces of good" protecting them, not the least of which was Tolkien himself. Tolkien knew he was just beginning what he expected to be a long story, so he had to make them escape! ...but beyond that, the riders are drawn to be blinded phantoms, drawn by an inner force toward the ring, but not designed to confront the real world head on - at least yet. Maybe they are as yet uncertain, but there is a lot left up to us to decide at this point.
379 posted on 2/22/02 12:11 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I advise Hobbits to avoid encounters with Black Riders. A lot of good that does, with neither Hobbits nor black riders much around these parts.
I thought the movie did a good job with the 'sniffing' bits. And those horses - I mean, talk about demonic beasts! You know Jackson did a good job when you're scared of the Nazgul's horses.
I wonder why Elves don't like giving advice, or rather 'say both yes and no'? Because they have so much experience they can sort of see both sides of a thing? Or because they haven't got a clue and are trying to bluff? You'd think they'd be, I don't know, less oracular and more "Those Black Riders are really scary and bad and if they catch you, Middle-Earth is doomed." Then again, I suppose the point was to get Frodo on his way without making him scared to move. I have a feeling that if I saw a Nazgul, I'd run away screaming, or just stand rooted to the spot in terror.
384 posted on 2/22/02 12:48 PM Pacific by JenB
I thought the movie did a good job with the 'sniffing' bits.
I completely missed the sniffing bit in the movie (does that mean I have to go see it again?) In the book it brought that fact to mind when the Rider dismounts and sniffs. (If the horses can see and the Riders are blind, why does the Rider lead the horse?)
I guess Gildor is trying not to scare the bejeepers out of Frodo. But then Frodo doesn't need any Elf to tell him they're bad.
385 posted on 2/22/02 1:24 PM Pacific by Overtaxed
Okay, Jen. How 'bout some Middle Earth Astronomy.
Away high in the East swung Remmirath, the Netted Stars, and slowly above the mists red Borgil rose, glowing like a jewel of fire. Then by some shift of airs all the mist was drawn away like a veil, and there leaned up, as he lcimbed over the rim of the world, the Swordsman of the Sky, Menelvagor with his shining belt. The Elves all burst into song.Anyone bring food for our stargazing?
392 posted on 2/22/02 2:00 PM Pacific by Carolina
Help me with the Tolkien tradition of giving four names to everything. The black riders, as called by the hobbits, are properly called both Ringwraiths and Nazgul. Are these terms interchangeable? Is Ringwraith simply a translation of Nazgul in the common tougue?
The reason I ask is that the word Nazgul in my memory is not used until quite later in the story... In fact, I correlate Nazgul to the context of the winged creatures they later ride.
396 posted on 2/22/02 2:08 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Menelvagor = Orion, I know that. Also called Menelmacar (menel is a root meaning heavens). This was one of the constellations created by Varda to celebrate the awakening of the Elves. According to Silm., Menelvagor 'forebodes the last battle that shall be at the end of days' and 'when first Menelmacar strode up the sky... in that hour the Children of Earth awoke' (Of the Coming of the Elves).
Incidentally the constellation we know as the Big Dipper or Plough (if you're British) was called Valacirca by the Elves, the Sickle of the Valar and was a challenge to Morgoth.
Borgil I can't find referenced. The word 'gil' means star in Sindarin. 'Bor' I can find no reference to, other than a series of minor chieftains bearing names with 'bor' in them. From context I'd wager that Borgil is the planet Mars.
Remmirath - no clue. Your guess is as good as mine, maybe better as my knowledge of astronomy is very weak.
399 posted on 2/22/02 2:12 PM Pacific by JenB
"perhaps some of them are gluttons, but not many"
To carry the comparison to humans a little furthur, if we really think about it much of our life is spent acquirng, preparing and eating food and it is certainly at the center of our celebrations and most of our wonderful memories, so this is a hobbit quality we can very much relate to and the fact they are so taken with food in a sense accentuates their goodness because we ourselves relate food to good things and their normal eating frequency is virtually double what would be considered normal for a human making it very easy for us to see them as very happy and carefree creatures indeed.
431 posted on 2/22/02 3:17 PM Pacific by sweetliberty
Gandalf had curiousity about this ring and how Bilbo could have found such a thing, maybe, I don't recall anything about it from The Hobbit. But he really did not ever suspect it was the "one ring" until it demonstrated such a profound impact on Bilbo... Bilbo's behavior after the party, combined with his apparent lack of any signs of aging, caused him to wonder.
He began to research it more closely then, like in the movie, when he says there are "questions that need answering". What is easy to miss in the movie, is that it took him 17 years to be sure of the answer, at least sure enough to know the test of fire would answer it for good. He and Aragorn and others tracked Gollum down in that time as well, and tried to dsicover more about how he could have found and kept such a thing. That we do not learn until he gets back...
450 posted on 2/22/02 5:41 PM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Did anyone who has heard the elves speak in their own language and who has also heard regular mortals speak in tongues (Christian faith) draw any comparisons to the spirit behind what they were hearing in the movie and the Spirit behind speaking in tongues? I am not addressing the fact that elvish is a foreign language, but the effect of hearing the elvish tongue spoken, and the feeling it gave (or may not have given).
I was awestruck by it and so was my movie companion. I felt a tremendous peace every time I heard the elves speak their language. It had a very clean and wonderful sound to me. Anyone else notice anything about this?
453 posted on 2/22/02 9:32 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
nor would I be surprised if they possess some more telepathic ways of communicating
Remember how Galadriel communicated with several members of the Fellowship, without words? I haven't gotten that far in the book yet, but if the book and movie jibe, then the elves do have powers of communicating beyond regular conversation.
455 posted on 2/22/02 9:40 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
I wonder why Elves don't like giving advice, or rather 'say both yes and no'? Because they have so much experience they can sort of see both sides of a thing? Or because they haven't got a clue and are trying to bluff?
At least for FotR, it serves Tolkien's purposes to have them stand in this place of seeming to hold two opinions equally without driving others to believe either, as a vehicle to allow Frodo to make up his own mind to take the ring to its destruction. Frodo's personal commitment to this was essential to his success -- if he were to succeed. The elves knew that if Frodo went because someone told him he had to, he would be far less committed to it, far more likely to back off the mission when the going got tough. Tolkien may have had other reasons also, such as you mention. It seems probable.
456 posted on 2/22/02 9:48 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
The Wizards (or Istari) are Maiar, powerful spirit beings who came to Middle-Earth in the physical form of old men in the Third Age. There were 5, of which only 3 come into play in this story: Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast. Their job was to assist the free peoples in their struggles against Sauron, who was also a Maia.
467 posted on 2/23/02 9:20 AM Pacific by ecurbh
Maybe this chapter should be called "Of Elves and Wizards." :)
This is the first time in LOTR that we actually get to see and hear Elves. The one thing that struck me is how they can be so serious yet laugh so much. (If you would pardon another comparison to the movie, I missed the Elf laughter in the movie.)
Another thing is that the Elves are not control freaks. You'd think that Gildor would offer to escort Frodo to Rivendell after he found him being chased by Riders with Gandalf missing.
476 posted on 2/24/02 7:34 AM Pacific by Overtaxed
The elves have done quite enough in the First Age and the Second Age and now it's time for men (and Hobbits) to take charge. Even Gandalf doesn't step in and take over - when he could. But they do help in their own way. The "non-interference" way, but still...
483 posted on 2/24/02 1:09 PM Pacific by NewCenturions
The Elves in the third Age were not what they were in the Fist and Second Age. Many of their greatest heroes (Feanor, Gil-galad, etc.) were dead. It was difficult to raise the same great armies as they had used to. The Elves knew their time was going to be over, and looked to Men to save Middle-Earth. The Elves were more in an advisory position by the time of the War of the Ring. In the Second Age an army that was composed of elves and men could lay siege to Barad-Dur for seven years. By the Third Age, the elves were on the defensive, defending their kingdoms in Lorien and Mirkwood.
488 posted on 2/24/02 2:53 PM Pacific by koba
How much do you think the elves put together about the black riders and Gandalf and the ring? I don't have the book in front of me, and now I can't remember, but were they sure the black riders were actually after the hobbits? I remember I was discussing the movie with someone and they mentioned how the nazgûl could sense the presence of the ring, but they didn't necessarily figure out who was actually carrying it. Perhaps the elves just thought the black riders were snooping around the Shire, but not necessarily after the hobbits.
How sure was Frodo and his buddies that the riders were actually looking for them?
I always fall into the trap, in reading the book as well as when watching the movie, of thinking that the Nazgûl are after Frodo. They are, but they don't necessarily know that it's Frodo they're actually after until (Book/movie SPOILER, highlight to read): Frodo pulls the ring out at Weathertop and they "see" it and him. I noticed that in particular in the movie, that the Nazgûl didn't really focus in fully on Frodo until he'd pulled the ring out of his pocket.
515 posted on 2/25/02 7:42 PM Pacific by Penny1
Well, Frodo was able to sense that they are after him:
"I can’t say why, but I felt certain he was looking or smelling for me; and also I felt certain that I did not want him to discover me."And remember, he was warned by Gandalf in the previous chapter that the enemy learned from Gollum that the ring was taken from him by a hobbit of the Shire, so I think Frodo is beginning to put two and two together. I am not sure what Gildor knows about the ring, but he does know about the Black Riders:
"Is it not enough to know that they are servants of the Enemy?" answered Gildor. "Flee them! Speak no words to them! They are deadly. Ask no more of me! But my heart forbodes that, ere all is ended, you, Frodo son of Drogo, will know more of these fell things than Gildor Inglorion. May Elbereth protect you!"
517 posted on 2/25/02 9:40 PM Pacific by ecurbh
***Tangent/movie spoilers warning***
You know, that line was really interesting. It seems to me movie-Elrond was not seeing the reality that the ring would have corrupted anyone...even an elf. If even Gandalf is unable to bear the ring, then why would Elrond not get the picture that no one was immune to its corrupting power?
I still think the attitude movie-Elrond had has to do with the fact that Isildur and his heirs are in fact his kin. They may have chosen to be men rather than elves, but they are still descendants of his brother....whose name escapes me at the moment. I think PJ may have chosen to incorporate a bit of family issues into the Elrond/men/Aragorn/Isildur dynamic.
The other thing I've been wondering is if Elrond blamed himself for not making Isildur throw the ring into the fire--from the scene they showed, Isildur wasn't even wearing it. If Elrond had recognized the danger of the ring himself, he should have found a way to take the ring from Isildur, no matter the consequences to the guy. I wonder if his vehemence at blaming "men" was at least in part a deflection of his own guilt.
Okay, I'm heading off to Took corner now, lol...is it too early for a pint?
Green Dragon PING
Fellowship of the Ring
CHAPTER IV
A Shortcut to Mushrooms
Hullo all! With it being Friday and all, it is time for our new chapter! I hope you are all caught up on your reading!
In this chapter Frodo, Sam and Pippin wake up to find that the elves have gone. After some breakfast and some thinking, they set out from the woods above Woodhall and decide to take a short cut across country to attempt to elude the black riders.
“…Short cuts make for long delays..” said Pippin. “…I had counted on passing the Golden Perch at Stock before sundown. The best beer in the East farthing, or used to be…”
But Frodo insists “That settles it!… Short cuts make delays, but inns make longer ones. At all costs we must keep you away from Golden Perch. We want to get to Bucklebury before dark.”
And here is ecurbh’s Timeline if you would like to keep track of what day it is as we go!
So off we go! – Here is a Map of the Shire so we don’t get lost….
559 posted on 3/1/02 8:05 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
Excellent! I like seeing Frodo afraid of Farmer Maggot. Perhaps it's irony, but it's amusing to me because I know what he'll be facing in the months ahead. To be frightened of a friendly Hobbit farmer!
In the movie, is the frightened Hobbit who gives the Riders directions to Hobbiton Farmer Maggot? I think maybe it's supposed to be - with the dog right there, and it fits in.
No brilliant insights about this chapter. We do learn that Hobbits love mushrooms, but that's about it. Oh, and of course there's more of the gradual unveiling of the Black Riders. I would not want to meet one of those guys.
562 posted on 3/1/02 8:16 AM Pacific by JenB
I think it is interesting that the things the hobbits fear most before their quest are big folk, Farmer Maggot, boats, (minor spoiler coming) and the old forest. Interesting that Tolkien foreshadowed a lot of things to be scary, when they turn out not to be (some of our best friends turn out to be big folk). And the big trouble comes from unexpected places sometimes.
The hobbit in the film with the dog could be farmer Maggot... although he is a skinny guy and quite afraid. Farmer Maggot stands up to them pretty well in the story, and that would have been out of place in the film... I think our friend in the film is a generic hobbit...
This is one part that is tough to fit with the film... Even the Quintessential site pics are out of place for this chapter.
I liked how the title of this chapter was given a part in the film... A little chuckle from Mr. Jackson.
564 posted on 3/1/02 8:26 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
ITA--it's hilarious to think of 50 year old Frodo being afraid of a farmer that punished him as a child.
I do think Farmer Maggot is supposed to be the guy in the movie that the black rider asks about "Baggins."
Some of the things that struck me about this chapter--we get more of an idea of the relationships. We see Frodo wishing he could have Pippin along, but knows he doesn't want to lead him into danger. We have Sam insisting that he go with Frodo--interesting that the elves told Sam not to leave him. Also, I'm always impressed that at this point, Sam sees himself as having an important role to fill as well, even though he has no idea what that might be. It's a big change for him, even Frodo notices that he is different.
The black riders are incredibly creepy, even this early on...they are always lurking, even when they're not seen or heard. Yikes!
I kinda liked the nod to the "shortcut" that they included in the movie. I know they couldn't include all of this journeying with the hobbits, so it was nice to hear about the "shortcut."
566 posted on 3/1/02 8:28 AM Pacific by Penny1
This is the chapter where the character of Pippen becomes a force. He was mentioned in the earlier chapters... but as part of the background. He was linked with Merry.
There is much to learn about Pippen from this chapter. If Frodo is the everyman of Tolkien's story, and Sam the faithful companion... Pippen represents the Hobbits in the joie de vivre.
It is through Pippen that Tolkien's humor first begins to emerge. His humor ran rampant in The Hobbit, but for the most part he has been subdued so far in The Lord of the Rings...
Catch the familiarity between the characters as they set off. You can see it in the way they speak to each other. Pippen asking Frodo if he brought them water. "I can't carry water in my pockets" is Frodo's reply. There is an ease in their relationship.
When Frodo wants to think about what to do, Pippen is very shocked that he wants to do it before breakfast.
Sam's character is not yet defined. He is Frodo's gardner, his servant... though his loyalty is beginning to come through as well as his pure devotion to Frodo. He carried more in his pack than Frodo. He brings things he thinks Frodo will need further down the road, and he isn't afraid to carry more.
Frodo is the leader. The others defer to him. Not because he has the ring, but because Frodo is a natural leader. He is Bilbo's heir and the affection they had for Bilbo remains with Frodo elevating him in stature.
The Black Riders are seen but the meaning of their appearance are not understood to the hobbits. They are afraid of them because they are scarey. When you read The Unfinished Tales... you can see the impact the Black Riders have on Gandalf, Boromir, and Faramir. Their "evil" seeps out.
If you met these three hobbits on the road, I think you would have a tendency to gravitate more toward Pippen. He is as transparent as glass, his mind is on "simple" things... good ale, "the sniffing of the Black Riders", etc.
It is good that Tolkien let us see Pippen in this state. Nothing bad or evil has affected him. He is young, his maturity and his emotional maturity are still young. Nothing has pressed in and shaped him. Nothing has caused him to grow up yet. Life is easy. I believe for Pippin, it has always been easy. He seems to be the favorite cousin... and he responds to Frodo in that manner. That is a pertness and an impertinance about him. It is wonderful to watch him mature.
Of course, after seeing Billy Boyd's portrayal of Pippen, Pippen now comes complete with a Scottish Accent which suits him.
568 posted on 3/1/02 8:33 AM Pacific by carton253
Sam's ... loyalty is beginning to come through as well as his pure devotion to Frodo.
I love this exchange bewteen Frodo and Sam:
"It is going to be very dangerous, Sam. It is already dangerous. Most likely neither of us will come back.""If you don’t come back, sir, then I shan’t, that’s certain," said Sam. 'Don’t you leave him!' they said to me. Leave him! I said. I never mean to. I am going with him, if he climbs to the Moon, and if any of those Black Rulers try to stop him, they’ll have Sam Gamgee to reckon with, I said.
You can't get much more loyal than that.
569 posted on 3/1/02 8:43 AM Pacific by ecurbh
I thought it was significant in this chapter that Frodo realizes the danger and knows he has to get away from the others. He actually even says to himself while watching Pippin cavorting on the grass:
"No, I could not!" he said to himself. "It is one thing to take my young friends walking over the Shire with me, until we are hungry and weary, and food and bed are sweet. To take them into exile, where hunger and weariness may have no cure, is quite another--even if they are willing to come. The inheritance is mine alone. I don't think I ought to even take Sam." He looked at Sam Gamgee, and discovered that Sam was watching him.
[Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring Book 1 Chap 4]
Sam knows just what Frodo is thinking.
Lord, I love this book.
573 posted on 3/1/02 9:03 AM Pacific by 2Jedismom
The other thing I've been wondering is if Elrond blamed himself for not making Isildur throw the ring into the fire--from the scene they showed, Isildur wasn't even wearing it. If Elrond had recognized the danger of the ring himself, he should have found a way to take the ring from Isildur, no matter the consequences to the guy.
Taking the ring by force in the one thing that opens you up to being controlled by the one ring. Bilbo and Frodo are the only ones who come into possession of the ring by means other than force and they are the only ones who have even a smidgen of resistance to it.
576 posted on 3/1/02 9:15 AM Pacific by Valpal1
I think Frodo's definition of danger is defined by Biblo's adventures. He is probably thinking of orcs, and trolls, and Mirkwood, and Smaug... for adventure and danger has been framed by Bilbo and his book. And so it is true for the rest of them. They have heard Bilbo's stories and read his books. Their is probably a romantic aspect to adventures.
He has no idea what is waiting for him. I don't think Mordor can even be fathomed. The Black Riders are overpowering in their "evil". That evil is so palpable that when they are unrobed and invisible, they are still felt.
I don't have the book in front of me, but doesn't Frodo only expect to be alone up until the Prancing Pony. He expects Gandalf to take over. So, that lessens the evil reference even more.
Sam says "I'll go to the moon with you..." No matter how well intentioned that is, it is still hyperbole. It's only an expression of Sam's loyalty. His words make his loyalty great. But his loyalty is still untried, still untested. He has stout words, but does he have a stout heart? We don't know. They are still in the Shire tramping across lands that have never caused them hurt, never brought them danger, never brought them anything but love and security. They can only imagine what waits for them outside the Shire... they can't know for sure. This chapter shows these three hobbits (and Merry waiting for them at Crickhollow with Fatty Bolger) as untested. They've ducked from the riders, but they haven't been put into mortal danger. So, without that testing, there is nothing to measure what strength is on the inside.
The same is true with who I think these Hobbits represent - the English farmer, schoolboy, factory worker sitting in the trenches of France during WWI. It's easy to talk bravery, loyalty, fierceness, and medals while sailing from England to France. But words mean nothing in the trenches with the bullets flying and your childhood mate blown to pieces next to you. All that changes everything. Then we see the measure of the man.
I see the Hobbits, bravely going forth, but naive about what waits for them. This only strengthens Tokien's story. For the time of testing will come, and then we will see what our hobbits are made of.
577 posted on 3/1/02 9:25 AM Pacific by carton253
Catch the familiarity between the characters as they set off. You can see it in the way they speak to each other. Pippen asking Frodo if he brought them water. "I can't carry water in my pockets" is Frodo's reply. There is an ease in their relationship. When Frodo wants to think about what to do, Pippen is very shocked that he wants to do it before breakfast. Sam's character is not yet defined. He is Frodo's gardner, his servant... though his loyalty is beginning to come through as well as his pure devotion to Frodo. He carried more in his pack than Frodo. He brings things he thinks Frodo will need further down the road, and he isn't afraid to carry more.
Pippin sees himself as Frodo's peer, or he wouldn't have expected him to have brought water back. He's coming along to share in the adventure. Sam, on the other hand, consistently demonstrates humble servanthood. He is assisting his master in a dangerous undertaking. Perhaps, because he was listening under the window to Gandalf and Frodo, he better understands the magnitude of the task (which at this point, they think is getting the ring to Rivendell for safety). None of them really know what they are about to sign up for.
578 posted on 3/1/02 9:30 AM Pacific by Valpal1
I think you are right. Pippen does think Frodo is his peer. They are cousins. Pippen is younger, perhaps slightly spoiled, secure in the love that is demonstrated to him. I see Pippen as immature and sheltered. Not because I know it, but because of his attitude and the things he says. He rebukes Frodo, he isn't afraid of Gandalf, he insists on doing, going, being, etc. Frodo speaks to him as easily as Pippen speaks back. These two are family and friends.
579 posted on 3/1/02 9:38 AM Pacific by carton253
I see the Hobbits, bravely going forth, but naive about what waits for them.
I see the two younger hobbits being naive...sure, just like you said, another adventure much like Bilbos, is what they expect. But I think Frodo has a better idea of what awaits. I get the feeling from previous chapters that Gandalf has pretty well clued him in. The Shadow of the Past chapter does it. Frodo says
"I feel that as long as the Shire lies behind, safe and comfortable, I shall find wandering more bearable: I shall know that somewhere there is firm foothold, even if my feet cannot stand there again.."
Then he goes on to say that he always thought of going away, like Bilbo, but he realizes that this is not the same sort of adventure. Not a "there and back again" deal.
All this just breaks my heart. Such self-sacrifice.
Sam, on the other hand, I think has looked forward to the "adventure" but after seeing the Black Riders and talking with the elves, has begun to see just how bad a situation his master is in. And knowing Frodo the way he does...he knows Frodo won't want to bring anyone else into what he has inherited.
582 posted on 3/1/02 10:01 AM Pacific by 2Jedismom
I guess I don't feel that way because there is no way you can know...
You find that out in life. You think you know what storms you can weather. You think you know how brave or how scared you will be... You think you know, but until you are in the storm, until you are faced with either being brave or scared... you don't know.
He doesn't think he will see home again... that is his sentiment. He can believe it... but until it becomes his reality, it is just an abstract idea.
By saying that I don't take anything away from Frodo. But, he hasn't endured anything. Only in the fire is faith/loyalty/courage tested. Frodo doesn't know the fire. He only thinks he knows what the fire will be like.
584 posted on 3/1/02 10:32 AM Pacific by carton253
I agree with 2Jedismom on this one....I think Frodo is much more aware of what's in store, though he does not know the extent nor the specifics of it. There is a certain pall of doom that hangs over him--I think he senses that his fate is likely to be a tragic one, but of course he doesn't know what that will "feel" like.
The Shadow of the Past probably clued him in on it, at least to an extent.
A couple of things that shed some light on his state of mind--first, that he dragged his feet about leaving, and second, when Gandalf said he wasn't ready yet to take the ring all the way to Mt. Doom--and Frodo whole-heartedly agreed with him. Yet Frodo knows already that that may very well be his fate, because Gandalf said that it might. Frodo is well-versed in lore, moreso than most hobbits, he hangs out with elves and is a friend of Gandalf's. He knows who Sauron is, what Mordor is, and what kind of dangerous journey travelling to Mt. Doom would be.
The one thing that I think he doesn't understand, and in fact I don't think anyone does at this point, even Gandalf, is just how much damage the ring will do to him personally as he carries it with him closer and closer to the source of its evil and its power.
594 posted on 3/1/02 12:17 PM Pacific by Penny1
that he doesn't know what he's getting into when he agrees to come with Frodo
I don't think any of the Hobbits know what they are in for...
In one of the previous posts it has Frodo talking about starving... Frodo's never "starved" a day in his life. He eats six meals a day. His definition of starving is being hungry. But, it's just a matter of getting the food... (waiting for it to cook, or for Rosie to serve it) That's a vast difference than having nothing to eat with no hope of getting any.
In Chapter 4... they can only think in the abstract. Yes, it's dangerous. Yes, it could be fatal. Yes, they will brave those ideas. But, there comes a moment when the rubber meets the road (as we say in these parts) where the mettle is tested and these Hobbits aren't there yet.
So, it isn't just the young Hobbits who are naive, Frodo and Sam are just as naive.
In the movie, Strider tells Frodo "I know what hunts you." Strider's knowing of the Black Riders and what Frodo knows of them are poles apart.
595 posted on 3/1/02 12:19 PM Pacific by carton253
It really strikes me in these early chapters, and in the movie, just how much everyone loves Frodo. They go on together, just because they want to go with him. There is something very sweet and simple in their devotion and loyalty. And it's something that only increases and seems to spread to everyone they meet along the way. Except for the bad guys, of course.
596 posted on 3/1/02 12:21 PM Pacific by Penny1
I still think the main difference in Frodo's understanding of the danger is that he doesn't "get" the spiritual danger he is in. He's frightened of the black riders, and in the movie it's obvious that his level of fear matches the level of threat they pose to him physically. What Strider is speaking of, however, is a spiritual danger--the ultimate danger is that Frodo could become one of them. That's something that Frodo only begins to understand when he "sees" them and when he has to fight that danger within his own soul.
597 posted on 3/1/02 12:25 PM Pacific by Penny1
I wonder, too, if in some way the response of the elves to their story drove home the reality of the danger. After all, the elves could have just said they'd be okay, that they didn't need to get too worried about those pesky black riders. Instead, elves who would ordinarily have barely given them the time of day decided to hide them in their own little spot. That was a comfort, but it also says pretty clearly that the hobbits are in serious danger.
599 posted on 3/1/02 12:30 PM Pacific by Penny1
I guess if you want to spiritualize it...
But I'm talking about the physical danger.
This is only my opinion of course...
For example (and I think this example applies) In the book Gone With the Wind, the county boys (Scarlett's friends) were all upset because they thought the war was going to happen without them. They couldn't wait to go to war and lick the Yankees... Why, this was going to be the best fun... They had no idea what was waiting for them. Ashley said, he didn't understand what he was in for until he saw one of his childhood friends die beside him. Then he understood war. Until then, it was abstract. Yes, you might die. Yes, people shoot at you. Yes, all that. But still, there is a moment when your death is no longer a concept but a reality, and that moment hasn't happened to these hobbits yet.
Now, I realize that Gandalf tells Frodo all about Mordor but being told about it and actually coming in contact with it are as different than night and day. That moment is coming (skipping ahead on Weathertop -- then they'll know)
Like I said, it is only my opinion.
601 posted on 3/1/02 12:41 PM Pacific by carton253
Hmmm. I never thought Gone with the Wind would have any redeeming value, let alone be used to illustrate a Tolkien point! I think you're right if you're talking about Merry, Pippin, or Sam. Frodo, however, has a very good idea of the evil in the world out there. He knows more than the average Hobbit about Elves and Dark Lords. He expected never to return, from the first. Merry maybe had a little idea - he seems older and wiser than Pippin, and more experienced than Sam - but not like Frodo. Frodo went into this whole quest thing with his eyes wide open.
618 posted on 3/1/02 3:48 PM Pacific by JenB
I think right then and there, Sam figures out that Frodo's going to try to get away from them. He knows he better watch him like a hawk.
Samwise certainly acts that way later on. (No spoiler details coming.) I think Tolkien having the elves speak so directly to Sam not to leave Frodo began to put things into crystal clear perspective for Sam on this point, and being elves, they understood enough of Sam's nature to know that a word to the wise (hehe) would be sufficient.
634 posted on 3/1/02 7:12 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
At this time in his life, Pippen is not Thain material.
Put contemporaneously, at this point in his life, Pippen is George Bush in the National Guard, heir to a family fortune and the honors of first-born son, with a lifetime ahead to measure up to the name and family greatness he's been blessed to inherit, or disregard what has been given to him.
Pippen certainly has the manner of the Thain's son, if not the deeds to prove his budding strength and character.
635 posted on 3/1/02 7:19 PM Pacific by GretchenEE
There are many who recognize Sam's devotion and commit Sam to his master in this story... In the film it was Gandalf first. In the book, it is the elves:
When I go reread this chapter, it struck me how Frodo is slow (slower than Gandalf and the Elves at this point) to recognize Sam's devotion.
Frodo looked at Sam rather startled, half expecting to see some outward sign of the odd change that seemed to have come over him. It did not sound like the voice of the old Sam Gamgee that he thought he knew. But it looked like the old Sam Gamgee sitting there, except that his face was unusually thoughtful.
Also, did anyone else think it was funny how Farmer Maggot talked about the Hobbiton folk the same way Hobbiton folk talk about the Bucklanders? Reminds me of growing up in a small town not too far from two other small towns who's town folk talked about each other in much the same way! :)
657 posted on 3/3/02 8:39 AM Pacific by Overtaxed
I remember the first time I read the books and my first encounter with the black riders. It seemed that they set the atmosphere and tone for the entire story. They are SO ominious, just dripping and oozing with evil. That was portrayed so well in the movie. I really had reservations initially about the movie capturing the essence of the books and maintaing the creative integrity of Tolkien's complex story. I was pleasantly surprised, and when the black riders came on the scene it became evident that great effort was made to be true to the original.
660 posted on 3/3/02 8:49 AM Pacific by sweetliberty
Does Frodo underestimate Sam's depth or devotion in the beginning? hmmm... I am thinking so. Or he feels like the is the only one who understands the full impact, and thinks the others are more unaware than they are. He thinks at this point he has been successful in shielding his friends from the truth. He still thinks it is possible to slip away and leave them safely unaware and unaffected by this thing. He still thinks they are naively following along. He doesn't know yet that they DO understand, and are willing to follow anyway. He underestimates all of them.
We are certainly given more clues as to Frodo's depth of understanding because we get more of his unspoken thoughts...
Random thought I had the other day. Sam is the only one of the hobbits who even has a job. The others in the group do not work, presumably because they have inherited the all the comforts of life... More subtle clues that Sam is working class, the others are not.
661 posted on 3/3/02 8:57 AM Pacific by HairOfTheDog
I quite agree. I've seen FOTR eleven times, and I remain overall astonished at it. I still get tears running down my cheeks just at how well Jackson brought so many aspects to the screen.
Another example would be Sauron. I've said this elsewhere, but -- when I first heard Sauron would be shown onscreen, I thought, "Big mistake." One of the remarkable aspects of Sauron in the trilogy is that while (A) he is the gigantic, awful, terror-inspiring and looming enemy all through the books, (B) he is never seen! And so I apply Stephen King's Big Bug principle. The monster bug you see is always less scary than the monster bug you don't see -- because your imagination supplies details that make it personally frightening to you, which might be shut out once you actually see something.
And so a Sauron seen would necessarily be less menacing than a Sauron unseen. See? (c8
But at first view, I saw I was dead-wrong, and Jackson had somehow beaten the odds and made a Sauron who somehow was at the same time seen and not-seen. Yes, he is a gigantic, looming figure. But that isn't what you see, when he really strides forth. What you see (and this is brilliant; the Bible does the same thing) is the reaction of others. You see fierce warrior Elrond literally do a slack-jawed double-take, in the middle of a battle-stroke. You see a group of warriors stagger back together before this massive figure. And then the strikes, sending broken bodies flying over the heads of the army....
So it's a Sauron whom you see, yet at the same time you know he's much more than what you see.
Well, don't get me started. I think Jackson is simply a genius. I am in awe of what he's accomplished. I have my quibbles, but compared with Jackson's successes in bringing alive this wonderful story, they're relatively petty.
Dan
667 posted on 3/3/02 12:33 PM Pacific by BibChr
I'm just jumping in new here....and maybe someone else has made mention of this....
...but impressed with your ELEVEN times seeing this movie.....
...one of the scariest scenes I thought was at the beginning when the four hobbits were on the road & Frodo sensed danger.....
..and he alerted them to run into the bushes.....
..and when the evil presence arrived on it's horse, the atmosphere was so charged with the most oppresive, overwhelming horror.....
..and then that spider, then scorpion, then all the ugly worms started crawling out over the boys.
No one in my group interpreted it the way I did.....
...but I saw it as evil personified and so near, that the horrible, ugly creatures that stay hidden were fleeing away from it?
Does that make sense?
Did you know Tolkien & CS Lewis were friends, and taught at the same university?
674 posted on 3/3/02 1:10 PM Pacific by Guenevere
Random thought I had the other day. Sam is the only one of the hobbits who even has a job. The others in the group do not work, presumably because they have inherited the all the comforts of life... More subtle clues that Sam is working class, the others are not.
Entirely correct, although the class divide for the rural hobbits is nowhere near as great as that of Tolkien's England - they have no feudal system and laws are customary, rather than enforced by a lord or a state. In English class terms, Bilbo and Frodo are "lords of the manor"; the hobbits of Bagshot Row are the Baggins' tenants. These hobbits work for a living and pay rent. Bilbo & Frodo are Hamfast & Samwise's employers as well as land lords.
The Bagginses are rich enough to live off of their savings and their rents. The Tooks and Brandybucks are also important families; at the time the story begins, Merry and Pippin are too young to come into any kind of inheritence, but they probably don't have much actual work to do, apart with helping out their families with whatever work is required to manage the family estates. And when they return, they fall right into leadership roles within their family clans and within the regions of the Shire dominated by their families. Sam is unusual in that he moves up, socially, by inheriting Bag End from Frodo.
679 posted on 3/3/02 1:40 PM Pacific by Vast Buffalo Wing Conspiracy
Welcome!
Believe me, if I didn't have SOME LITTLE SHRED of self-restraint, it'd be 12 or 15 or 18 by now!
I've taken in recent viewings to watching the audience during certain parts. I'm sure your scene (which is very creepy) gets them tense. But a little later, at night, in the forest, when the hobbits start moving and the Black Rider bursts out of the trees with a shriek, the whole audience JUMPS! It's a beautiful thing.
Now you raise something I've wanted to ask the group, and I'm glad you did. What about those bugs? When I first saw it, I thought it yucky but gratuitous. I thought the point was, Ooh, this creature's so nasty, it brings its own bugs. It seemed one of the few cliche'd touches in the movie.
But on reflection I started thinking along the lines you suggest. That the point is: this creature is such a monstrosity, even the nasty bugs are terrified and want to get the he@@ away from it. The Dark Rider's so nasty he scares the worms right out of the ground.
Is that how y'all see it?
Dan
684 posted on 3/4/02 6:46 AM Pacific by BibChr
#684....Yes, that's exactly how I see it!---I know there are intense moments throughout the movie, but the presence of so much evil was palpable, and knowing it was hovering where those boys were.............and then all the yukky creepy crawlies we all hate start pouring out......
Another thought from here......Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the 'boys' were told to travel in daylight, and keep low at night,
What struck me as horrifying was the nightmarish black riders were going around in daytime too.......not waiting for night.
They were everywhere....all the time.....day & night!
685 posted on 3/4/02 7:05 AM Pacific by Guenevere
"The evil WE'RE dealing with is so overwhelming ...........
.We find solace in Middle Earth with the young, courageous Frodo .....small in stature but brave of spirit ..... willing.... even determined, in the face of unspeakable evil... to see this to the end and bring about victory!"
I think you make some excellent points. The most successful of stories are rooted in the essence of our being. Those which speak most deeply to our needs and hopes and fears are likely to be those that endure. Many are based in truth, such as the story of the Pied Piper. Most beloved fairy tales have some basis in fact and often deal with issues of death and destruction in the real world and were designed to comfort the children.
An age of evil has dawned upon our once bright nation, and whatever regrets we may have and whatever blame may be placed changes that fact not one bit. But the deepest darkness can be dispelled by the tiniest light and therein lies our hope.
695 posted on 3/4/02 3:02 PM Pacific by sweetliberty
Alas - Tolkien's world never loses its way... It is an untouchable place uncomplicated by all of that. A refuge we can escape to at any time. One reviewer of the film put it really well. It makes you want to be worthy of Middle-Earth.
HOTD said this better than I could. There's something special about Middle-Earth that makes us better citizens of our own world. We're not really trying to escape, we're just taking a vacation so that Monday morning we can face the realities of terrorism and evil here. I think all of us would leap at the chance to go to Middle-Earth, but since we can't, we build our own Hobbit holes and try to learn something from Tolkien.
696 posted on 3/4/02 3:07 PM Pacific by JenB
Wow! No I didn't, but it sure makes sense. Another of my favorites, Chronicles of Narnia, always put me in mind of Lord of the Rings. Lewis and Tolkien always seemed somehow connected. That is interesting to know.
There is another writer that is associated with Tolkien and Lewis (who formed a writer's group themselves called the Inklings) named Dorothy Sayers. She has written some very good stuff, although I have to confess the only thing I have really read of hers is something called 'The Mind of God" which deals with how a writer is an extension of God's creative power. It was very eye opening to me.
699 posted on 3/4/02 3:34 PM Pacific by Alkhin
I love all the comments I have read...especially those of Merry and Pippin. Although, in Pippin's defense, I would like to toss in my thoughts...his is a refreshing personality and is the best example of the nature of hobbit innocense, without any concept of the horrors and outrage that lie beyond the borders of the Shire. I would liken him to my seven year old, who struggles all the time with the event of Sept 11...one she doesn't understand why people keep talking aobut it, and especially doesnt understand why anyone would want to kill people. This is how I see Pippin's view of the world. Were it not for the fact that he is (heretofore unrevealed) part of a conspiracy to watch Frodo, I think his idea of going on a trip with his cousin would be just that (as someone already eloquently explained it!).
And i really like the way someone explained his relationship with Frodo. It is probable that when I first read it, that my impression of their relationship was one of toleration, rather than affection. It always worried me that whoever would play Pippin would turn him into some whining nuisance that people just tolerated. Of course, as an adult and parent now, I can see that this is exactly how kids act ie always hungry, ferociously curious, and contrary (if you tell them not to do it, they do it.) I really appreciate that someone pointed out that Frodo's affection for his cousin was genuine. I hate it when characters like Pippin are patronized. What I like about Tolkien is that he never gets to that point with Pippin.
But I especially like Pippin because 1) he thinks he can do anything...and usually does. 2) he is always ready to go...and I am a lot like that. why sit around TALKING about it...let's roll! 3) I think he is a lot more perceptive than people give him credit for...but THAT comes out more in TTT, and I think that is more of an inward realization for him.
Of course, all of this is just me babbling...