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IMHO
1 posted on 04/03/2002 9:52:50 AM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb; RJayneJ
An excellent post, IMHO. I nominate this post for Essay of the Week.
2 posted on 04/03/2002 9:55:06 AM PST by hchutch
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To: r9etb
Although I would think that the right of secession would be consistent with the founding principles of the USA, especially those mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, I must admit (reluctantly) that you make a very compelling argument to support the idea that secession is unconstitutional.
3 posted on 04/03/2002 9:56:43 AM PST by Maceman
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To: r9etb, wardaddy
I have always asserted this. If it takes approval of the Fed Congress to change a state boundary how in the world would it be constitutional for a state to drop out of the union?
4 posted on 04/03/2002 9:58:35 AM PST by Texaggie79
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To: r9etb
The secessionist states clearly violated almost every part of Section 10 -- especially that last clause -- and would by any standard be considered in a state of insurrection.

Will that be a first class ticket to London, or coach?

Ultimately, the point is moot. The Constitution was dead before the ink was dry. Might always makes right.

5 posted on 04/03/2002 10:02:59 AM PST by hopespringseternal
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To: r9etb
I also look at it as such. If secession was constitutional and states could drop out any time they wish, This would be a continent of MANY nations. What if the President a state chose didn't win? They leave the Union and make him the president of their new nation. There must be compromise between states for this nation to flourish.
6 posted on 04/03/2002 10:04:13 AM PST by Texaggie79
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To: r9etb
Great essay, I am going to have to go over it again a few times. This thing ought to be published.
7 posted on 04/03/2002 10:12:54 AM PST by Paradox
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To: r9etb;shuckmaster
Not a very convincing argument.
8 posted on 04/03/2002 10:17:32 AM PST by Free the USA
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To: r9etb
Since the colonies had an established form of government when the DOI was signed, it would seem to imply that the DOI trumps the Constitution.

It states:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, ...

... We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

Does the Constitution somehow eliminate the "Right of the People to alter or to abolish it"?
9 posted on 04/03/2002 10:17:59 AM PST by babyface00
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To: r9etb
barf
11 posted on 04/03/2002 10:24:18 AM PST by dasboot
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To: r9etb
There is actually a huge contridiction in the constitution. Congress has the right to take action to put down a rebellion, but the 2nd amendment is specifically designed so the people can be armed should a rebellion be necessary.
13 posted on 04/03/2002 10:30:05 AM PST by sharktrager
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To: stainlessbanner; Constitution Day; 4ConservativeJustices
CONFEDERATE SECESSIONIST BUMP!!!
14 posted on 04/03/2002 10:30:21 AM PST by billbears
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To: r9etb
Too bad the Declaration of Independence is lost on you.
19 posted on 04/03/2002 10:34:25 AM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: r9etb
Several states (Virginia and New York, for example) reserved the right to secession as a condition to their ratification of the Constitution. Thus, you either have to argue that these states were never legally part of the Union (since the conditions of ratification were unacceptable) or that these states have the right to secession as set forth at the time of ratification.

21 posted on 04/03/2002 10:37:55 AM PST by The Green Goblin
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To: r9etb
Great stuff.

Not only does the actual text of the Constitution prohibit unilateral state secession, but the laws made in pursuance also do so. Specifically, the Militia Act of 1972 gives the president the clear power to enter any state and ensure that United States courts are operating.

Oddly enough, Jefferson Davis would have heartily agreed with your article.

He held that language in the constitution of the so-called CSA that was identical to the Costitution's language gave Congess the power to act in the common defense of the government, thus giving the lie to the complete state sovereignty that the so-called seceded states claimed to have. How about that?

See "Battle Cry of Freedom", by James McPherson, p. 433.

Wakt

27 posted on 04/03/2002 10:40:44 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: r9etb
You have to present your argument better than quoting the Constitution and saying you disagree with DiLorenzo and Williams. You fail to support the reasons why the men in dispute are wrong. Not a convincing argument!
30 posted on 04/03/2002 10:42:21 AM PST by stainlessbanner
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To: r9etb
Either you believe this...

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness

...or you don't. I do. You obviously don't. There is no just philosophy that empowers men to govern over those who do not consent to be governed by them.

31 posted on 04/03/2002 10:43:31 AM PST by Rodney King
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To: r9etb
Article 1, Section 8 gives Congress the power To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions

That's right. CONGRESS. Not one man using an outdated Whiskey Rebellion Act to suppress an entire half of the nation. Or to abscond $2,000,000 from the US Treasury without the approval of Congress. Wait a minute!! Why didn't he ask Congress you say? Congress was out of session convienently while this was going on!! You'd think that something as important as going to war would have pushed lincoln to recall Congress, but of course he didn't for an additional 3 months!! Oh, BTW he also ordered the building of three ships and the purchase of additional four for the Navy. That's under the power of Congress as well

lincoln overstepped his bounds, destroyed the Republic, oh, but he kept the union together!! That's important, I guess..

Let's see

1)unconstitutional use of military tribunals
2)first federal taxation established, 1863
3)expanding the power of the executive branch to lengths unheard of before in the history of the US
4)helped to lay the groundwork for the public education system

just some of his great achievements, not to mention the war crimes committed during the War of Southern Independence.

32 posted on 04/03/2002 10:43:53 AM PST by billbears
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To: r9etb;hchutch;Maceman;Texaggie79;Paradox;shuckmaster
Apparently, some people will see only what confirms their preexisting beliefs, rather than think critically. To wit...

Webster's defines insurrection as "an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government."

What happened was not a revolt against civil authority, it was civil authority, duly elected by the people of the States, voting to go their own way. The "established government" of each state decided to dissolve its link to the Federal government. To claim that a duly elected assembly could not vote to secede would indicate that the work of a similar group eighty years before, when voting to join that union, is invalid. Do any of you actually think that the States would have joined the union if they thought they'd never be able to dissolve it? Not a chance, and that's why there's no language preventing it in the document!

The rights and restrictions on the States are defined in Section 10 The secessionist states clearly violated almost every part of Section 10 -- especially that last clause -- and would by any standard be considered in a state of insurrection.

Since Article 10 in no place states a State cannot vote to leave the union, once it does, it's no longer a State, so violations of Article 10 become moot.

The actions of the people in secessionist states fit this definition of treason, and it is within the powers of the Federal Government to deal with them.

See above. If you've voted to leave the Union, you cannot commit treason against it.

The Constitution does not outline the steps needed to leave, but nothing exists in the Constitution to prevent any State from peacefully leaving. Sorry to burst the bubble.

LTS

36 posted on 04/03/2002 10:48:51 AM PST by Liberty Tree Surgeon
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To: r9etb
"No State shall...make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts..."

This is one of my favorites. It basically says that if I owe the State money, I must pay in gold or silver coin, no substitutes, no gold/silver certificates, just coin. How does it compare to what the FRNs in your pocket read? This note is legal tender for all debts public and private. If that is not a contradiction, I don't know what is.

Import duties were at one time paid in gold and silver coin. Why? Because under the Constitution, there was no alternative. This part of the Constitution monetizes gold and silver by making people pursue it, and not something else such as Federal Reserve Notes, to pay taxes. Has this part of the Constitution ever been repealed? No. So whatever color of law under which the government is operating that lets it accept Federal Reserve money as tender for taxes, is clearly unconstiutional and a crime is being committed every time such tender takes place. So while y'all are busy arguing if secession is ok or not, the crime is happening right now of Americans being forced to use paper money that has no practical difference from the Continental, the Assignat, the Deutchmark of the Weimar Republic. America was supposed to be different from all the other BS nations that suffer from the abuses of paper money. And her difference begins right here with this clause. Why is it while everyone is arguing over whether or not secession (when now 1861? that's a current event) or bibles in the classroom is Constitutional, no one ever seems to take up the cause of this blatant violation? If not for the ability of the government to ignore this part of the Constitution, we would not have the IRS, bloated bureaucracies, tax rates that take 30-40% of your income.

38 posted on 04/03/2002 10:49:24 AM PST by Jason_b
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To: r9etb
There are so many errors in this essay that it will take longer than I have right now to respond to it. I'll reply later.
40 posted on 04/03/2002 10:50:50 AM PST by TBP
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